08: The Childfree Life Is The Life For Me

For many people, “starting a family” includes having kids. But we know that not everyone wants to be parents, and in this episode we hear from a handful of childfree people to celebrate that choice. 

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Episode transcript is below. Transcripts may not appear in their final form.
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Julia: I'm Julia Winston, and this is Refamulating a podcast that explores different ways to make a family. Often when you hear the phrase “make a family”, it's kind of assumed that you're talking about having kids. But not everyone has kids. In fact, a lot of people don't, more and more so all the time. And that's what today's episode is about- being child free.

Now I want to talk about words for a second here. When I say child free, I'm referring to people who have intentionally chosen not to have children. That doesn't mean they don't like children, though that may be true for some. It just means they've made a conscious choice not to become parents. Childless, on the other hand, childless, is a word that describes someone who wants kids but doesn't have them or didn't have them.

Childless is about lack - an unfulfilled desire - and childfree is about choice. We've all been told that having kids is the normal path, but for the first time, many of us actually feel like we have a choice. And the whole point of this show is to normalize whatever choices you make when it comes to your family. 

So the choice NOT to have children is the perspective we're going to dive into today on Refamulating. and we're going to hear from a handful of different people who fully own and celebrate this choice. 

First we’ll hear from a few childfree people in their 30s and 40s. Meet Lyz…

LYZ: I always knew I didn't want to have children.

Michael…

MICHAEL: I like to rent a child for a little while and then like, go home. 

Julia: And Gabby…

Gabby: I think that while I  would be a good parent, could be a good parent, I don't want to. And so, how well am I going to do something that I don't want to do? I mean, how well do you do a job that you don't want to do? I think it's a scary conversation to have and people are just starting to have it more. 

Julia: And then, we’ll get a fresh take from someone who’s been there and done that. 

HEIDI:  someone asked me what my word for the sixties, my sixties would be. And I said, it's just pure fuckin joy.

Julia: That’s Heidi Clements, a 63-year-old social media influencer who's oozing with confidence about her choice to be child free.

HEIDI: even if I was the only single child free woman in America, I would not feel alone. It makes me feel different. What's wrong with being different. I think it's cool that I didn't choose the same path that everybody else did. Makes me unique. Doesn't make me alone.

Julia: This woman is such a badass, I can’t wait for you to hear everything she has to say. 

Before we hear from these folks, I want to bring another voice into the mix. Someone very special, who you may be familiar with: my producer and partner in Refamulating, Claire McInerny.

Claire: Hello.

Julia: Claire and I are both child free, and neither of us are sure if we want kids. It's something we talk about a lot. So Claire, in three words or less, what is your stance on having kids?

Claire: I don't know, I think would be my answer.

Julia: Yeah, me neither. That's my three. So Claire made a terrible thanks for asking episode last year called, should I have kids? 

 Claire: One of the intrusive thoughts I kept having was, if I have kids now, will I be setting them up to be soldiers in the water wars? Will they ask one day, why did my mother have me when she knew humanity was going in such a bad direction? I was in this position of, I kind of want kids, but should I have them? Is it responsible to have children with the knowledge I have? Is it selfish to have kids if their lived experiences will certainly be worse than mine? 

Julia: Claire, I think so many people can relate to you about this questioning. This is a topic that's on everyone's minds in one degree or another. And when it comes to having children, you know, I think that it certainly is a factor that plays into people who are doubting. Are there other reasons that you consider not wanting to have kids?

Claire: Yeah, I mean, the climate anxiety, what the future will look like is a very real fear I have, but it's probably the most extreme. I also look at parenting as a really intense job. And I think if I did it, I'd want to do it well. So I know I'd give up a lot of my life and what it looks like right now. And then like the logistics, things like money, childcare, having support, I see how hard that is for other people and I know that that would also feel like a huge life change. So those are kind of the things that hold me back. And I just sit so squarely in the middle knowing that I think I would like many parts of it. I think I could have a great life without them. And that's my struggle is neither side pulls me super hard.

Julia: you know, One thing that's just interesting about what you're saying and where I am is the different phases of life we're in and the different life circumstances. So you're younger than me. You're also partnered. You're 33. You are in a relationship. I am 40. I'm single.

For me, It hasn't really been a question of whether or not I want to have kids as much as it has been who is the person I want to have kids with if I end up having kids. I have always been sort of like, if I have children, I know I want to do it with a partner and I haven't met a partner that I would want to do that with yet. 

I froze my eggs when I was 33 and it was honestly the most empowering decision I've ever made. It enabled me to freeze time. So in a way there is a part of me that's not really worried about having kids because technically I can do it with my 33 year old eggs anytime. Like I can do it.

Claire: When you and I started making this podcast, the topic of child free by choice was something we knew we wanted to talk about and tackle right away because we are in our thirties and forties, everyone around us is either like they're having kids or not, it's the time. And so I feel like this conversation is happening around us. So it was really important for us to make an episode that celebrates the child free life. Even though you and I aren't cemented in that camp, we just are hanging out there right now.

Julia: It's sort of a medicine that we're wanting to take of like, Hey, show me what it's like to embrace the choice not to have kids. I need to see more models of people who are like, yeah, I don't want children and I'm fine. I want to see more of that. I want to hear more of that. And I know more of that is happening all the time. So that's what today is really about. It's us. you know, opening that door and seeing what's, what's there.

So this episode includes a handful of voices of people who are child free and they each have different reasons and reactions to what their child free life has looked like. But before we get going, I want to be clear that we're not here to say that one choice is better or worse than another.

Each of us is on our own unique path. The way I think about that is that there is no right or wrong. There's just right and left. There are many ways that things can go when it comes to having kids or any other decision, and only you can decide which direction works best for you. There's going to be amazing things and there's going to be horrible things in either direction because that's just life.

But we hear a lot about the amazing things and the horrible things about being a parent. We don't really hear that about being child free. So let's get into it. 

So I interviewed three child free people for this next segment. Liz, Michael, and Gabby are all in their 30s and 40s, they're all married, and they've all decided against having kids.

Lyz Nagan: Hi, I'm Liz Nagan

Michael Ventura: I'm Michael Ventura.

Julia: and there's Gabby.

Gabby: I live in Texas and I do not want kids.

Julia: Gabby is a pseudonym. She wanted to protect her identity because of her work. 

Claire: We wanted to ask these child free people all the questions that might feel rude if we just met at a social gathering. Here's what we wanted to know. How did they make the choice? What do they love about it? And what's hard about it?

Julia: Let's start with why, like how did they all choose to be child free? 

Lyz Nagan: the idea of a family was just one person who I loved and loved me.

Julia: Liz is one of those people who always knew she didn't want kids. What she wanted was a partner and the freedom to travel. 

Michael and his wife Caroline actually did try to have kids in the early years of their marriage. 

Michael Ventura: We were 20 something kids that like hadn't questioned the norms. And as we started to question the norms and also come into really who we were going to be as adults, we realized that a different way forward was, was likely to be for us.

Julia: The thing that made it clear was when Michael's wife actually got pregnant, and they realized they didn't want to have a baby. So they terminated the pregnancy.

Michael Ventura: It was a real galvanizing moment for us to, to mutually decide that we were going to have an abortion. And after making that choice, really feeling clear that this was the right choice for us and what we wanted.

Claire: Gabby's decision to be child free was more of a slow burn. She started her family when she met her husband and got married.

Gabby: Being a spouse is really important to me because I love my husband and, uh, he's the coolest person in the world. I think that was part of my initial pause was I'm not sure if I want to share this time or compromise the way that we do things.

Claire: And it wasn't just wanting to savor this life that she's creating with her husband. Her job also played a huge part in her decision. She is a social worker in the ER at a children's hospital, which means she gives a lot of energy and emotion in service to others, and kind of describes it as, not seeing herself having energy for children at home.

Gabby: So I think in A maybe harsh, but real summary, I spend most of my time with kids who have been hurt or violated, who want to die, who spend most of their time wanting to die, or who are killed in some horrific accident. And that feels like something that I don't need to take on at home as well.

Julia: Something that both Gabby and Michael mentioned that I want to highlight is their desire for community and how having kids would have taken away from that for them. They both told me that they want to nurture and teach lots of people, whereas other people choose to channel that energy into their children. The energy required to parent can take away from friendships and other ways of having a community. We only have so much energy.

Michael Ventura: It felt to us like we would rather be out in the world doing what we do with lots of groups with lots of families with lots of people with lots of interests. And then over time, starting to see that one to many was really the way I liked to be in the world to now being very clear that that is how I show up. Along the way making the decision to have, dogs in our life was kind of the, the right level of, of one to oneness that allowed us the freedom we still wanted. 

Claire: The way he talks about that really reminds me of you, Julia. I feel like you also thrive with a really big social circle around you.

Julia: Yes, that really spoke to me. And I feel like even, I don't know if I'm going to have children or not. And if I do, of course, they'll become My priority but because I haven't had children and because I am such a community oriented person I really resonate with what Michael said and I just feel like I could see my whole life being About large groups of people and not a smaller unit Um, actually in episode one of this podcast my mom told me that If you don't have kids, you still have some obligation to leave a little bit of yourself behind and bring hope and repair to the world in some way.

And so I feel like I try to do that in a lot of different ways, including this podcast. And for me, that feels a little bit like what Michael is talking about. And for me, it's, it, it really could be enough, you know, that could satisfy this nurturing part of me.

Claire: Yeah, totally.

Julia: One way that Michael shows up in his community is supporting other people in their lives who have kids. 

Michael Ventura: I have loved being invited into their lives and to be a uncle who can provide something to that child that helps them have more of a communal upbringing than just one with their, parents. 

Julia: This one is one I know you're You and I can both relate to.

Claire: Yes. I really love all the kids in my life, whether it's Brits nieces and nephews, my friend's kids. I love spending time with them and having a special relationship with them. I think that's a really fun role to be celebrated. You know, even if I have my own kids one day, yes, it's been, you know, fun practice to be around kids more and learn more about them. And if I don't have my own kids one day, I really like being a supporting cast member, which is like something you and I have come up with in this conversation, 

Julia: Yeah, I love being a supporting cast member. And it's a fun, it's a fun and meaningful role to play. But ironically, There's this narrative about not having kids that means you're selfish.

Gabby: I think that people are like, this is selfish, you just wanna... Party or you just, you know, don't want to be responsible for things. And I think that while I would be a good parent, could be a good parent, I don't want to. And so, how well am I going to do something that I don't want to do? I mean, how well do you do a job that you don't want to do? How well do you do a relationship that you don't want to do? And I, and I think it's, I think it's selfish in both, both ways are selfish.

Claire: I feel like another, I don't know, kind of common, like question or response if you say I don't want kids is people think ahead, farther in life. So if you don't have a family now who will take care of you when you're old.

Gabby: Number one, like, let's talk about selfish. Like I'm going to produce a whole human so that they can take care of me. I don't know if we're going to make it to when I'm old. Okay. Like the world is on fire, literally. And so I'm not sure that I need to birth a babysitter for when I'm 80.

Julia: And another narrative is that if you don't have kids… 

Lyz Nagan: that it's lonely, that there's no meaning, like you can't have meaning in your life without children. That somehow that, the act of creating a child is like the most wonderful and beautiful and sort of pinnacle thing you can ever do. And that might be true for them, and it's obviously not true for me.

Julia: Another thing that can be tough is adjusting to your friends having kids and going into a different phase of life than you, sort of diverging. 

Gabby: I only see these, these folks every once in a while now. And, you know, kiddo is there, usually, and conversation is focused on baby. And what we're doing is focused on watching what baby is doing. And the amount of time that we can be at dinner is... It's all planned around when baby needs to eat and baby needs to sleep. And that's great. I love baby. I love each of these babies. but I don't have the, the adult friend in these scenarios, I don't have them in the same way. I'm not craving time with a two year old. I'm craving time with my 32 year old best friend. 

Claire: That one's tough because it's hard to talk about because you don't want the parent to feel like they ruined the friendship, but it is just hard. Change is hard. It is hard to go into different phases of friendships.

Julia: It's tough to Have spent so much time with someone and you're just not getting the same level of attention and care anymore. And you're available to give that to them, but they're not available to give that to you.

So it's obviously not all challenging. Not having children can mean more freedom. And we did want to celebrate some of the things we heard from these three that makes it worth it. 

Lyz Nagan: one of the gifts is being able to fulfill that part of my heart and soul that is new experiences and new people and new newness that keeps my brain and my senses like stimulated and activated.

Michael Ventura: dogs will always be in our life. They're a big part of what brings us joy.

Gabby: literally, we do whatever we want, whenever we want. 

Julia: Asking ourselves if we want kids is such a new thing for all of us in our culture today. Even being able to ask ourselves if we want kids is a new thing . And all of us who are questioning can feel kind of lonely because this isn't something that humans have really done in the past. You just have children. So sometimes it feels good to have someone else give you permission.

Michael Ventura: I would say don't look at it as a absence of something, but more, what is this giving you permission to do more of? If you're looking at it as a decision that is taking something out of your plan, also be mindful about what are you putting back in your plan, or what are you dialing up in your plan?

Lyz Nagan: all the reasons are valid for not having kids. And if it's traveling the world, if it's sitting in your room by a fire, reading 20 hours a day, just do whatever it is. If it's right for you, it's just right. Period.

Julia: I just don't think we could end it any better than that. We're going to take a break. And when we come back, I talk with Heidi Clements, who's lived a child free life all the way into her sixties.

Julia Winston: This is Refamulating. I'm your host, Julia Winston, and today we're exploring the choice to be child free. I'm a 40 year old child free woman, and I have felt so many different ways over the years about being child free. Sometimes, I'm content. I savor my slow mornings. I travel whenever I want to and I have a lot of time and energy to give to a lot of people.

Other times, though, I'm not so content. I worry that I'm missing out on an important life experience, or I feel like I'm depriving my family of something crucial. In my toughest momentsI fret about my future. When I'm at large, multi generational family gatherings, I look around and I wonder if the old lady version of me is gonna regret not having kids. So, I wanted to talk to someone older than me who didn't have kids. 

Heidi: Hi, my name is Heidi Clemens. I am a 63 year old writer turned a social media storyteller and fashion addict. 

Julia Winston: Heidi has more than 700, 000 followers on Instagram, where she posts videos of herself getting dressed and sharing little stories.

Heidi: I learned an important lesson the other night that sometimes you just need to give yourself a break. I was having dinner with a friend who's really going through it. Some health issues, the death of an estranged parent, and the constant fear of a business failure.

Julia Winston: Heidi's videos are really popular because for one thing, her outfits are tres chic, but also because of her energy. Heidi often talks about aging, being single, and being child free with so much confidence. It's a very refreshing perspective.

Heidi: Being a single person doesn't mean I'm swimming in joy every day. It takes a lot of mental work to be a single person in a world filled with messaging that says you are alone and you are less. 

Julia Winston: She says that when she started posting, she hoped that other women in their 50s and 60s would be inspired. But as it turns out, that's not who's watching.

Heidi: 95 percent of my audience is under 35. It's taught me that everybody in their thirties is terrified that their life is over at 30 and that everything they've done has been a mistake. So I've highly documented all of the things that I fucked up at 20, 30, 40, 50. And To say like, I'm still here and I'm having a great time. What I've noticed is that the younger generation, is thirsty for somebody to tell them it's going to be okay and somebody that's been through what they've been through and somebody who doesn't look like everybody else, somebody who didn't get married, who didn't have kids, who doesn't have a significant other, who was an alcoholic, who struggles with pot, who struggles financially at 63 and is still thriving. Like these are just Things that happen. It's not, this isn't a test. No one's going to grade you at the end. And if you're grading yourself, like I like to say, you're probably grading someone else's paper because you didn't even ask for half of this stuff that you're being judged on. 

Julia: I've been developing this theory over the last year that I really believe, which is that I'm going to peak in my eighties. So I'm like only almost halfway there. And when I believe that, and I do when I, because I thought, think about like, what does it mean to peak? For me, I, for me, it's like, for me, peaking is like that there's this wisdom coming through me and there's this beauty and appreciation for life that when people look in my eyes They see it and they feel it and to me that's like peaking it's not about like my tits look great I Everybody wants like you were saying or like I'm juggling a career in a baby and a this and a that it's like no I for me peaking means that I am in full like peak Appreciation of life and that people feel that oozing out of me. 

Heidi: My peak is now because right now is when I feel the most in love with myself. And when I feel the most happy with who I am, I didn't feel that at 30. I was a fucking hot mess.

Julia: what do you love about yourself now?

Heidi: I am sober. I am able to handle my problems that come up in a rational way. I don't have insane irrational thoughts about things anymore. I don't judge myself. I know how to set boundaries with people. I know that no is a complete sentence. I don't care what you think about me. Just all the things that you need to live a full, happy life.

Julia: I'd love to hear about the, the journey you've been on. Starting there, who is your family, and what does your family look like today? What does it look like in the past, and what does it look like today?

Heidi: I mean, I, My family is made up of actual family and friends, and I have two older sisters who are family to me. But my friends have been a real source of family. You're told that romantic love is the only love there is. And so you need to have a partner and start a family in order to be whole. And I never did that. And I don't think romantic love is the only love that there is. And I think your friends and your family is the love that's most important outside self love. And, uh, and I've had that in spades.

Julia: How have you cultivated community and family throughout your life?

Heidi: I've just been really honest with the people in my life. I believe in boundaries with friendships and I believe that you can outgrow people and that's okay. Everything good happens when you let go. If you have a friend that's no longer serving you, if you have a parent that's no longer serving you, like, just let go.

Maybe they'll come back. Maybe it'll work out. Maybe you can try to work it out. But if you have things in your life that are literally not serving you, serving you that are just making you feel awful every day. Just let them go. There's no rule that says just because you had a best friends at eight until you were 30, that you have to keep that best friends. They might not be part of your life forever. Like, we stay in relationships longer than we should stay because we think we're supposed to be in relationships. People don't tell you enough that you can be on your own and be really happy. 

Julia: who have your role models been when it comes to living a child free life?

Heidi: none, no one. I don't know anybody who's my age that didn't have kids personally. It wasn't a conscious effort decision to not have kids. I just got sober at 40. And that's when I was like, Oh, should I have kids? And I went to the gynecologist my best friend was going to be a sperm donor. And she told me how difficult it was going to be. And I just was like, I don't want to do it. I just decided I didn't want to do it and, and then lived with that decision. And I think there were probably moments where I was like, huh, I wonder if I fucked up on that one. Oh, well. But you know, like I said, I was an alcoholic up until I was 40. So I like reverted back and had to live all those years that I was living as a drunk. So my forties were like a blur of just trying to figure out who the fuck I was and what I was doing while dancing on the head of a pin from being an open raw wound of surviving the trauma of being an alcoholic. So the kid thing just didn't work out.

Julia: there any part of you that wishes that you had kids?

Heidi: No. None. not a moment of me Wants children and I have a ton of girlfriends in their thirties and I feel like they're my kids. So I mother them quite a lot. And I mother whoever's following me on Instagram because I get a lot of DMS, uh, with people asking for advice.

Julia: That's so interesting. So it feels like you've found like almost like a one to many mothering role that you have now.

Heidi: 100%. Yeah. I mean, I don't want to be so presumptuous to say that, but that's what people tell me that I have been a parent that they didn't have and that I make them feel safe about what they're going through. And that's pretty remarkable. My DMS are just flooded with just magical things. And it just makes me feel like my life and my mistakes were worth something, which who wouldn't want that?

Julia: Yeah. I don't know why I'm getting emotional hearing you talk about that, but I think it's just like the, Courage that you have to just be who you are as it turns out is quite maternal for 

Heidi: What a concept, right?

Julia: Yeah, have you ever felt shame or behind for how you structured your life? Like what's been the evolution around your own experience of not having children and other people's perceptions of you being child free? 

Heidi: I think I was too busy being mad at people who tried to shame me for not having kids. And I think it's what's too bad. driven me the most is the concept of not having shame about it. My very first post that went viral was about, how I was standing in a, in a studio one day with, uh, a pregnant woman and a male.

And the man said to the pregnant woman, you will never know a love as great as this love you will have for your child. And it fucking pissed me off, like, how dare you tell me that I won't experience a love as deep as what she's having because I'm never gonna have kids. And it's continued to piss me off because I'm tired of how we make women feel badly for not reaching your fucking goalpost. You know, So I've never felt shame about it. I don't feel shame about anything. I say give the shame back to the people . who gave it to you. Anytime somebody says something to you about what they don't like about you or it's all their own fear. I mean, if they're just talking to a mirror, something in you and what you're doing makes them terrified and alone about themselves and you just have to kind of feel sorry for them and move on. 

Julia: yeah, who are the other people in your life? The other women in your life who are child free, in their 50s, 60s or above. 

Heidi: I don't know that I know any that are child free above 50. I don't think, I think they all have kids. You know, that might be my own like judgment because a lot of women who are my age are like bitter and pissed off that they didn't have kids or didn't get married so maybe I'm too judgmental of them. Or I don't want to be in that club of like, Oh, you're over 50 and don't have kids and you've never been married. Like even maybe I'm still judging it as some kind of loser club. I don't know, but I don't have a lot of women in my life who are over 50 and single and childless.

Julia: have you heard from any others, you know, in your, in your online community? 

Heidi: Yeah, so many. So, so, so many beautiful, wonderful, over 50 women who are just living their best lives single and child free. Yeah. They're all over my page. They just don't live in my neighborhood. 

Julia: Does it make you feel less alone seeing them?

Heidi: I don't feel alone. Even if I was the only single child free woman in America, I would not feel alone. It makes me feel different. What's wrong with being different. I think it's cool that I didn't choose the same path that everybody else did. Makes me unique. Doesn't make me alone.

Julia: If you could give advice. about how to live a life of joy now, what would you say?

Heidi: stop worrying about what other people think about you and stop making decisions based on somebody else's list of what's the right thing to do because you didn't write that list. Why are you following it? Why are you shopping for someone else's life?

Your life doesn't end at 30, that your life doesn't end. If you don't have children or get married, that you're not a failure if you're not perfectly financially together, that everything you do, you're allowed to do, that you can throw the rule book out and, and live your life by whatever set of rules you want to create or have no rules, just to live your life. No one's going to get to their deathbed and be like, so glad I did it exactly by the book and didn't enjoy it at all. 

Julia: Yeah. 

Heidi: have the cookie, eat the cookie

Julia: I think enjoyment is something that I really see. Like you are, you're enjoying yourself. What a concept. 

Heidi: Someone asked me what my word for the sixties, my sixties would be. And I said, it's just pure fucking joy. It is just joy to be able to know who I am and be okay with it. Is it perfect? No. Is life perfect? No. If it were, then how would you know when the good things happen if you don't know when the bad things happen? So yeah, I do feel pretty joyous. 

Julia: How do you throw out that list? Like, how do you take charge of your own list? If you're still just operating off of someone else's standards?

Heidi: I mean, I did a lot of work. Um, I did a lot of meditative work. I did ayahuasca. I think I'm going to go do some ketamine therapy. I think you really have to get to the core of why you are who you are. And I did that work. I listened to a lot of, uh, meditations by Lacey Phillips, who's sort of, um, to be magnetic is the name of her podcast. She helped me a lot actually really dive deep into like reparenting myself moving the shadows from my life that were um Holding me back and I think that you have to do the work. You have to put the work into why you feel the way you feel. So that you can figure out why you are who you are So that you can make the changes that you need to make. 

Julia Winston: Heidi talks a lot about aging on her Instagram, and it came up a lot during our conversation because refamulating involves letting go of and reframing your expectations. And let's be real, most of us are walking around with numbers in our heads. I'll have a partner by the time I'm 35, I'll have a kid by the time I'm 40, I'll reach this career milestone by this age or that age.

All of these made up benchmarks can make us feel really bad when we don't hit them. And we most likely won't hit them because we can't predict how life is going to unfold. Unsurprisingly, though, Heidi sees things a little differently.

Heidi: I just think we need to stop categorizing people, you know, like, if you're this age, like, age really is just a number. It's, yes, your body changes and things happen to you, but, you know, old shouldn't be a bad word. You know, growing older shouldn't be a bad word. It Should be honored. You know, you've made it this far. 

It's like wrinkles and plastic surgery. Like if that's what you want to do fine, but just understand why you're doing it. You're doing it because someone told you wrinkles are bad and ugly. What if they told you they were beautiful? It would kill the fucking industry. So they're not going to tell you that. I just wish that we would stop making feel women badly for something that is natural, which is aging. We don't do it to men. Why do we do it to women? We don't talk about saggy nads every day, do we? You know, we 

Julia: No, let's not. 

Heidi: I know, who cares? 

Julia: I think if we can love ourselves as we age and if we can love the decisions we make, I do think there's so much more hope for us. And there are a lot more people now who are not having children. Like the numbers show us that they're, they're, you're ahead of your time, Heidi. There's a lot of people in my age group who are choosing not to have children.

I know for you, it wasn't a conscious choice. It was just what happened and you always accepted it. For a lot of people, they're actually choosing consciously not to have children. And I think a lot of people are asking themselves, like, what does community and family mean for me if I don't have What does community mean for you and what does family mean for you as you age and what do you see for the rest of us out here who are sort of following in your footsteps in that direction?

Heidi: My goal is to live on like a really big property where all of my cool friends have a house and there's like a big giant community table in the middle where we all have dinner once a week. I think community is what you make it. I think if your community is a once a week zoom meeting where you talk to your girlfriends, that's your community.

I think if it's your one best friends that you talk to, that's your community. If it's the family that you have of husband and wife and children, that's your community. Community is what you make it. It's just what you make it. It could be just you. You could be your own community. If you are giving yourself everything you need and you're happy, be your own community.

Julia: Yeah. of people say to child free folks, there's this worry of like, well, who's going to take care of you when you get old? And this question comes up over and over again. I think it's like one of those little inner critic judge fear questions. Question. What do you think about that What does that mean to you? what do you, what have you, thought about it? 

Heidi: I think more about not having a partner when it comes to that aspect of my life, you know, that I do kids. I mean, I would hate to have forced my kids to take care of me. I went through that with my parents going through it now and it's just unfair. Like you shouldn't have kids that they take care of you. That's just hideous. I think more about Do I want to be like alone at 80? Am I going to be okay with that? I probably will be, but Um, I think more about that like what if my body fails me Do I want like some nurse taking care of me? Um, but it's very fleeting that That idea. And I just try not to think about it.

I try not to borrow trouble about that concept because we all die alone. You know, I was with my mom right before she died, but she died and she knew I loved her and I got to say goodbye, but she was alone when she died, you know, and she wasn't anywhere near what she was when she was alive. So I just, it's part of life is death, and I don't think we should focus on death. I think we should on life. Again, that's just looking to the future. Like, just don't borrow trouble. Just stay here now. Maybe it'll all work out. 

Julia: Well, to that question, what comes up for you when you think about the idea of legacy, what does that concept mean to you? And you know, what do you want to leave behind once you are gone? 

Heidi: I think maybe some of the work that I'm doing on social media will stay around and matter to people, you know, maybe it will be like, Oh, remember that cool old lady that helped us through our thirties and there's when they're 60, you know, and I'm no longer around, like, that'd be cool. That somebody remembered me and that I did some good. My, my goal in life is to leave earth better than I came. And I think I'm doing that.

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Julia: okay, so Claire, we've just heard from four different people who have chosen not to have children who celebrate that choice. Three of them are sort of in our age bracket, and they're really owning it, um, warts and all. And then we have Heidi, who's like, you know, she's talking at us from the other side.

And how are you feeling at this point for yourself after hearing from these people?

Claire: I think this has been really helpful for me. Like you said earlier, I'm in the thick of really thinking about this question. I also live in Kentucky where everybody is, you know, married and has a kid, not everybody. Um, but it's always really refreshing to like, get out of the water you're swimming in and remind yourself that like, I, whatever family I have with whoever it's with, whatever kids are in my life, like what I took from Heidi is it's always going to be beautiful because it's what you're putting your energy into.

It's the love you're sharing. Um, and we shouldn't get caught up on who those people are and what the titles are and just focus on like cultivating love at whatever stage we're in. 

Julia: Oh my God. Me too. I feel so encouraged and sort of relieved and at peace and like I can do this. I think the word that would probably describe it the most is empowered. And the whole point of this show is to empower everybody out there to just own it a little bit more. Own your choices. Own your life. Own your family. Own yourself. Own it. Whoever you are and however you're approaching your family, just own it. So, whatever it is for you, own it, love it, embrace it, and just go forth, you know. Be present with what is with love. 

Claire: I write about this in our newsletter, but you and I both had very spiritual moments recently, me with an astrologist, you with a psychic, and they kind of talked about how both of us in our own lives want a big community for family, are really thinking about family differently. And um, That kind of also felt really reassuring and made me feel the same way you're feeling right now, which is like, Oh, we're just on this journey and it's okay to question and it will be okay. No matter where it ends up.

Julia: I want to thank you for joining me in this episode, Claire, and for always helping me create everything that we're creating together. And we want to thank Gabby, Liz, Michael, and Heidi for just owning it, owning their lives and sharing that empowerment with us. I hope everyone out there is also feeling empowered in some way.

Is there something in your family, whether it's about having kids or not, that you could own just a little bit more? Own it, baby. We love you. Thanks for being with us today.