06: Thicker Than Water: Creating family with a known sperm donor

When Cat and Emily, two women, wanted to have a baby, they knew they would need outside help. They asked their friend David to donate his sperm. They didn’t just want his DNA though, they wanted to invite him into the family they were creating.

__

Episode transcript is below. Transcripts may not appear in their final form.

__

Julia: A year and a half ago, I arrived fashionably late to a friend's birthday dinner at a sushi restaurant in Austin. The appetizers were disappearing quickly, so I gave the birthday girl and her wife a big hug. Then I scanned the table to see where I wanted to sit. That's when I saw David. He's tall, with dark hair, and kind eyes, and there was an empty spot right next to him.

So we're talking about like, what makes a father? What makes a mother? Is it like, biological?

Dave: Well, I think there's three components. There's um, biological, there's parent, and then there's role model. And so, you can have all three, or just one of the three, or none of the three.

voice memo fades underneath

Julia: No, I wasn't hitting on him, but he is a catch. I wanted to sit next to David because he's a known donor. David donated his sperm to the birthday girl and her wife so they could have a baby. That's why I was so excited to meet him. He was the only other known donor I'd met after I donated my eggs to a male couple.

At the time, the egg daddies, as I call them, were in the middle of trying to get their surrogate pregnant. I just decided that I was going to make this podcast. So naturally I wanted to record every interesting conversation that came up. David and I started talking about how we both grappled with this funny role we've found ourselves in, a role with very few models, and even fewer words to describe it beyond known donor.

Dave: if you think about the situation where like a father is just like not a good role model, and maybe not even in the kid's life, they might even say something like, Oh, I don't have a father. Even though they have a biological father, he's just not in their life.

So they've deemed their biological father as not their dad, not their father. And they might even, or they might have a stepdad and be like, this is my dad. And so it's really, I think, whether or not you're the father or the mother is like deemed by the kid. Yeah, so 

Julia: we all have to wait until our kids are old enough.Our kids, I just said that. 

THEME MUSIC 

I'm Julia Winston, and this is Refamulating, a podcast that explores different ways to make a family.

 This is the second half of season one, and we're excited to share five new refamulating stories with you over the next five weeks. 

When I met David at that dinner, I had already donated my eggs, but I had no idea if I'd end up becoming a fairy godmother. But I was so excited to chat with him because I wanted to hear from someone whose donation had already led to an actual human.

David donated his sperm to his friends Kat and Emily when they were ready to have kids. Their daughter, Quinn, is now two years old, and David is part of her daily life. So today, we're gonna hear from David and his baby mamas, as he calls them, about how they've created a family with their friend and sperm donor.

First, I want to introduce you to the three adults in this family. There is, of course, David 

David: I'm David. I'm into fitness. I'm an entrepreneur and I'm a known donor.

Julia: and then the baby mamas.

Catherine: Hi, I'm Catherine. I gave birth to Quinn and this is my wife, Emily. 

Emily: Hey, I'm Emily. Um, go by Ima, which is mother in Hebrew. Um, and I'm a bonus mom. 

Catherine: You're not a bonus mom. You're a real mom. Well, that too.

Julia: What is a bonus mom, and what is a real mom?

Catherine: That's a good question. I've heard people who are like step parents say, oh, I'm a , bonus dad or bonus mom. Which I wouldn't say that Emily's like a step parent. But I guess she has two moms I don't know. I don't know how this works.

Julia: none of us really know how this works. We're all figuring it out, which is totally why we're even doing this interview. 

To be clear, Emily is a full on mom co parenting with Katherine or Kat. Finding the right words in any refamulating situation can be tough because we have such limited language and titles outside of the nuclear family. But this is how it looks in Kat and Emily's family.

The two of them are married and raising their daughter, Quinn. And David is their good friend and donated his sperm to help them conceive. Now that Quinn is here, he sees them once or twice a week and sometimes babysits. One day when Quinn wants to know more about how she was conceived, he'll be around to answer questions.

But I want to back up a little and talk about how they all met, and how they decided to start a family together. This all starts with Kat and Emily meeting and falling in love.

Emily: Well, we met the old fashioned way on Tinder. What? Oh. In New York. 

Catherine: Yeah, we met on tinder in 2018 and we You know, like, lesbians do, went on four dates in a week, and our fourth date was the Women's March in New York City. 

Julia: Before the march, Kat and Emily made political signs, and Kat told Emily that she wanted hers to be noticed. Sure enough, it was photographed by the New Yorker.

Emily: I just thought, okay, this is someone that really manifests things and makes things happen. And that's been true since then. So that's. One of the first times I was like, oh, you're a pretty remarkable person.

Julia: These two were in love, but the timing wasn't quite right for a relationship when they first met.

Catherine: At the time wasn't out of the closet yet. So that was a process for me and we went through some stuff with that where Emily didn't want to be with someone that wasn't, you know, out yet. I was like, well, I have to, you know, I don't want to come out and then we just met and then we aren't actually together and then what am I just out and then I'm not with anyone. So the whole thing was just this weird, , chicken or the egg. I'm like, I want to get to know you better. And you were like, I don't want to be with someone that's not going to be out of the closet and is potentially just experimenting. So we had this whole, drama around that. And then we broke up for a couple months and then we got back together.

Julia: Once Cat was out and they got back together, the two of them started talking about having kids.

Emily: Early on in our dating, it was very clear to me that I was, like, okay, this is what I want, like, are you on board? Remember, I don't know how quickly it was in our relationship, but I was just, like, Week two? Yeah, it was like, uh, I pretty much laid it on the table, I'm like, you're great, this is what I want, is this also what you want? Cause if it's not, like, I need to know that pretty early on. 

Catherine: Um, No, I think because we broke up for a bit and then we go back together, it was very much like, okay, well, if we're going to be together, I want to have kids at some point and, you know, get married and do all that stuff. And so it was like, well, if we're getting back together, that's where this train's going. So let's do that. 

Julia: So the train towards babies is chugging along the tracks. But they needed to figure out how they would actually make that happen. You know, biologically. While they were dating, they decided to leave New York and move to Austin. That's when Kat first met David.

Catherine: we met two days or three days after I moved to Austin and Emily hadn't moved yet. So she was moving a month later. And so I was invited to this like entrepreneur dinner. And I go and there's six people and Dave, our donor, who is a stranger at this point, is sitting across from me. I didn't really chat to him the whole dinner. But, he drove us to this party after. So cut to literally 30 hours later, my friend had been running this, like, 50 mile charity bike ride thing, and I'd signed up for it, because I'm like, oh, I don't know Austin, I'll get to know it, and so I did it, and 10 miles in, I come off my bike, break my collarbone, they're like, you know, we'll, we'll call your emergency contact, and I'm like, well, she's in New York, I didn't think that would actually...

You need to call anyone and at that point like I knew people in Austin, But I'm not gonna like interrupt someone's Saturday and like ruin their day to take me to the hospital And so I'm like, I don't know any like I don't have anyone to call and so they're like, okay We'll just have the race volunteer bring you to the hospital And so the volunteer pulls up and who's the volunteer is Dave

No.

Yeah

Julia: Damn.

Catherine: And I'm like, oh my god, Austin is small and, and he was like, you're Catherine? So he takes me to the hospital. Uh, then comes back to pick me up, then, like, brings me food when I didn't ask. He's just like, I have this food for you. And then I'm going into my apartment, which is just full of boxes. I have two dogs there. And he's like, oh, do you want me to walk your dogs? And I'm like, no, it's fine. Like, I'm just thinking, I put this person on so much already. And, um, he's like, I'm just gonna walk them. So he takes them for a walk. And it was just like... Oh, this person's like super caring and, you know, looked after me when I was, you know, was sick and I have a hard time asking for help. Especially from people I don't know and he'd just gone so far out of his way So I think we bonded because of that and he became like a really good friend.

Julia: When Kat and Emily were ready to have a baby, they started thinking about how they wanted to approach it. Did they want an anonymous sperm donor or someone they knew?

Emily: Cat and I both have really amazing, fathers and biological fathers that we grew up with. And so for me, personally, I just really wanted Quinn to have an identity that belonged to her donor, and I wanted that relationship there. And I knew that if, like, we went to a sperm bank, that that wouldn't be possible.

Julia: So they wanted to ask a guy who was already in their lives. And David came to mind first for a few reasons 

Emily: So Dave is tall. He also has like Jewish descent and I was really wanting that thread of religion in there And he's super smart. He can do math. Yeah, he can do quick math. 

Catherine: you're actually complimenting someone because you're like I'm literally wanting your DNA in my baby

Julia: The first time Kat and Emily brought up the idea of sperm donation with David, they phrased it as a joke. Oh, if we had a baby, you'd be a great sperm donor, yeah?

David: And I quickly responded with a yes, knowing that it was a joke at the time. And like, I wasn't actually committing, but it gave me time to really think it through. And so I had a couple of weeks at least, maybe even longer before they brought it up again. And over that period, I thought through, okay, what are the pros? What are the cons?

 by the time they asked me the second time, I knew that the answer actually was yes.

So several months went by and then we had a little retreat with friends. We were going out to an Airbnb and I went into that retreat with the intention of like, Hey, I want to bring this up and like find out for real, if they're for real about it and tell them that like, I am serious that I'm willing to do it. And before I can bring it up they bring it up. And they had gone into the retreat with the same intention. So that was cool. So like we had I think it was two nights at this house with friends and like Within a several hours of getting there, this was discussed and agreed upon.

And we're like, all right, great. We're doing it. 

Julia: When we come back, David, Kat, and Emily make a baby.

When David said yes to being a sperm donor, Kat and Emily were thrilled. They were going to be parents. To them, it felt like a big relief. But for David, there was a lot to think about. It wasn't hypothetical anymore. Eventually, there would be an actual child, and he was going to be part of the kid's life.

So he had to start imagining what that actually meant for him.

David: I remember voicing one of my concerns, which is being single in my 30s. Like, oh, how is this going to impact my dating life? I said, well, I don't know, what if I meet a woman, I really like her and she's not cool with the situation. And my friend responded, well then that's not the right woman for you. She was quite adamant and I was like, okay, are you sure? Now I've had several, like two years, let's say, to think it through and process it and like bring it up with girls on dates and it's definitely not an issue. If anything, it's probably a pro. 

Julia: What do you think makes it a pro?

David: I was talking to a girl, um, that I dated and asked her about that. The pro would be one that like, Oh, I was generous enough to do this for my friends. Two, there's a number of factors why somebody would pick somebody to be the father of their kid. 

Julia: Like, oh, this must be good stock if someone wants him to be the, you know, the sperm donor for their baby. 

David: Exactly. So more than just looks and he's smart, but also character is what this person I was at the time dating mentioned like, Oh, he must have really good character that they want him to be a known donor and be in the kid's life.

Julia: Honestly, I had the same reservations as David when I was considering donating my eggs. I wondered if people I dated would have a problem with the fact that, technically, I had children. But I quickly realized that I wouldn't actually want to date someone who had a problem with that. So in the end, it became kind of a useful way to weed out the people who are not the right fit for me.

Before David did any donating, there were some logistics that he, Emily, and Kat needed to address. The first was a contract.

Emily: My dad's a retired lawyer, and so the biggest thing for me is, like, I don't want to make myself in a vulnerable situation and not, you know, cross all the T's. 

Catherine: The legal contract was very much like, This person has no responsibilities, We're not gonna ask them for anything, Um, they have no rights, A known donor contract is what they call it.

So when you get a sperm donor that you don't know, like that, this will all come when you buy the sperm, I would guess. Uh, whereas when you know the person you just have to come up with the, the documentation yourself. And so we had to get, you know, lawyers to, to handle that part.

David: So I wanted to make sure that it was clear, like I'm not going to be parenting. I don't have financial responsibility. 

Emily: But it was expensive, like the process of hiring the lawyers and going through it.

Julia: Yeah. What were the costs associated with your process and how did that fit into your family's financial situation?

Catherine: I mean we paid for the our lawyers obviously and then also for dave's lawyer. 

Emily: That was probably between both fees. Was it, it was over 2, 000. It was 500. Yeah, it was 2, 500. But then let's not forget that. I need to adopt Quinn then after she's born, which is a whole nother process. That was probably another 2, 000. Yeah, at least. I would say all in, with the adoption, it was probably over 5, 000.

Julia: Next, David had to get a sperm analysis and genetic testing. Everything was good there. And the final step before insemination, probably the most important, was having conversations around David's role as a known donor.

David: one thing that I thought was interesting prior to her being born is they asked me if I would like her to call me dad. I almost instantly was like hell yeah, because I've always wanted to be a dad and I was like great let her call me dad. But I feel like I should think about this, I feel like this is not something I should just like, rush to decide on the spot. So, I took some time to think about it, and I was really surprised that after thinking about it, my answer was like, no, she shouldn't call me dad. 

I was kind of picturing like my lifestyle. I like to travel and sometimes I'll go for a month, you know, it's like if I'm going to buy a plane ticket to go overseas, like might as well make the most out of it and not just go for a long weekend. So sometimes it'll be a month long trip. And I was just picturing myself, her being, you know, of age where she can like talk to me on FaceTime. And her being like, dad, when are you coming home? 

And just thinking like, wow, that's not fair to her. Like everybody else's dad is like living with them or at least like nearby sees them every week and here I might be gone for a month and I don't want to sacrifice, , my lifestyle cause I'm not having my own kid. So I went back to them and I said, Yeah, she should probably just call me David.

And they were like, well, you want her to call you uncle? Like, and all these things that people outside of the three of us have been like, Oh, so you're like an uncle. And I'm like, yeah, sure, you can think about it like that, but I don't want her to call me uncle. I think that'd be even more confusing. She can call me David. I'd be happy if she came up with some nickname for me. Um, and she could totally call me that.

Julia: Ah, the elusive nickname. We simply don't have enough words to refer to the important people in our lives who are not related by blood. But that's kind of what refamulating is all about, right?

Creating roles and names that feel authentic and meaningful. It's just part of the process. In this case, they settled on David being called David. And then with labels and logistics out of the way, it was time for Kat and Emily to try it and get pregnant.

Catherine: I'm two years older than Emily, and the idea of carrying was more of like, this is a life experience that would be interesting for me to have. 

I actually find a online company that sells home insemination kits. I ordered it, 89. I actually bought a subscription, because I was like, this is going to take a while. We started tracking our cycles or whatever, and then the plan was, we were going to take turns, and whoever got pregnant first, would be the person that would go first. 

Julia: Their plan was to inseminate whoever was ovulating until one of them got pregnant. And yes, they were playing with fire. 

Emily: There was like a slight risk that we both would have been pregnant at the same time, which now we would never do. It's just like crazy. 

Catherine: And anyone that we've told the story to was like, what if you both got pregnant? Right. And that would have been really very difficult. Yeah. 

Julia: Uh, I'm not a doctor, but I co signed that it's not advisable to play pregnancy roulette.

 Because they got an insemination kit online, they were able to do everything at home. Kat and Emily jokingly call this, the ceremony.

Emily: We make a lot of references to Handmaid's Tale. That's not how it goes. I don't want people to visualize it. That's like not how it goes down, but we think it's funny. So, like not funny, kind of twisted, but yeah. We'll be like, oh, Thursday is the ceremony.

Julia: The first time they have a ceremony, David goes over to Kat and Emily's house.

David: I just went up to their guest room and they just gave me a little cup and some lube and I came back down with the cup and then they went in their bedroom.

I just, hung out in the living room. They like, we turned the music on a little bit so it was like a little bit of privacy and I just, I don't know, read a book or something until they were done.

Julia: While David was hanging out, Kat and Emily retreated to the bedroom and whipped out the insemination kit.

Catherine: we were supposed to take turns. Emily went first and was like, okay, I think I'm good. 

Emily: Yeah, I was like, I have enough. Like, if I'm getting pregnant, like, this is fine. Like, what do I do with this thing now? This, like, glorified turkey baster? Do I just, like, throw it away, or what's the protocol? 

Catherine: And there's, like, the tiniest bit and I'm thinking, well, I don't like waste, fuck it, I'll try. That was really as much thought as I gave it. Because to me, I was just thinking like, it's like an experiment. This is gonna take a while. This is gonna take like a year, you know?

Emily: Everyone was like, you try and it takes a year, don't be surprised.

Julia: So yeah, the plan that day was for Emily to inseminate herself with David's sperm. For Emily to get pregnant. But yes, you heard that right. Kat gave it a go with the leftovers. And then

Catherine: A few weeks later, something happened where Emily was like, maybe you're pregnant. I was like, no way. There is no way that can't be, that can't happen. And then I was like, oh my god.

Emily: She was very pregnant.

music

Julia: During the pregnancy, Kat and Emily were busy preparing for the baby and they had constant reminders that a baby was coming. Cat's belly was growing. They were preparing the nursery and reading about how to take care of a newborn. But for David, life kind of looked the same.

David: I grew up in sales and it was always like, you don't count the sale until like you have the credit card info and like it's charged and gone through. I was just like, well, until this baby pops out, like it's not a real thing. And so I, you know, continued to just, go along with, with everything be friends with them and support them and however I could. It was very surreal and it was hard to, to like really comprehend. It was much different. I think for most fathers who are with their wife for nine months and they're there the whole way and every bit of it And I would see them once a week for like three hours. 

Julia: But the day Quinn was born was when it all finally felt real. David wasn't at the hospital for the birth. His contribution was picking up Kat's mom from the hospital the night before Quinn was born.

David: And I went to sleep at like 11 or something like that. Woke up at 8am and rolled over to look at my phone and had a message that they welcomed Quinn to the world. And I was like, Oh, that's so cool. Maybe it was the next day, I got a message from Emily and she just said, Quinn is perfect. Thanks for making our dreams come true. Oh, yeah. And that was like the most touching text I'd ever received.

Julia: Okay, here's where I, as a donor, want to know. What did it feel like to hold the baby for the first time? The reason I'm curious is because I still haven't met the twins, and I want to get a sense of what it might feel like to actually hold them for the first time. Like, will I suddenly fall in love and my ovaries explode and I realize I want babies of my own? Or will it just feel like holding some cute babies? 

David: Well, the interesting thing about it was that there was a lot of people projecting what that experience was going to be like leading up to it. And so, that, I felt like there was a lot of pressure around. Because it's like, oh, this is the first time I'm going to hold her. And like, I'm supposed to feel this like, very connected moment of like, oh my gosh, this is my daughter. And, it was interesting the like, a lot of women being like, oh my god, the first time you hold her it's going to be like, Magical. And a couple men. I remember I had one cousin that had just recently had a kid and was like, Oh my God, David, it's going to be amazing. Like this is your daughter. And he was so excited for me. And so I was a little bit like nervous going in there. And I remember thinking to myself like, Oh my gosh, I am nervous being made nervous on this like manly guy. That's like, uh, prides myself in being courageous and nothing ever makes me nervous. Yes. And there's like a eight pound little human in there that's making me nervous. And I went in and, uh, I mean they were really sweet to like have me be one of the first people that got to hold her. I remember just thinking like, Wow, she's so tiny.

Julia: And that was all he had to say about that. I think it's really easy to put pressure on moments that are supposed to feel so big, like holding your biological child for the first time. But the reality is, not everything that's meaningful will feel meaningful in the moment. Some things take time. One thing I've learned from watching my friends have babies is that people like to project a lot of big feelings onto that experience.

Oh, you're going to fall in love with your baby the moment they come into the world, breastfeeding is the most magical thing you could ever imagine. These types of stories can make people feel lonely. Like we're having a different experience than what people say you're supposed to have. So there's something wrong with us.

This happens to donors too. People think we'll be too attached or sad that the kids are not ours, but that's just not always the case. And talking to David about this helped reassure me. Whenever I meet the twins, whatever I feel will be just right. Refamulating begins with letting go of expectations.

When we come back, we'll hear about the reality of Kat, Emily, and David's family.

Quinn is now two years old. The last couple of years, Kat and Emily have been in new mom mode, caring for an infant, now a toddler. They've also been navigating another layer that exists in their family. What does David's involvement look like?

Emily: Wanting to be sensitive with Dave and be like, okay, if we post a picture of Quinn, does he want to be tagged in it? Does he want this associated with his identity? And I think that we really wanted that to be able to shift depending on where he is and meet him where he is.

And so for me, Just being, like wanting to be very sensitive of that and who I tell even because our social circles are so intermersed as well. I mean he's single right now if anyone out there is listening, but We're like perpetually trying to be matchmakers for him because he's so great.

But I think for me it was hard to kind of understand. It's like, okay he had concerns about his dating and what that might mean if he has a bio kid out there in the world, and explaining that, and does he need to explain that, and, that was, like, challenging for me to be sensitive, I think, at first, to that, um, cause I'm like, oh, I wanna scream from the top of buildings that we have this beautiful kid, and it's like, okay, what Which we can still do, we just don't have to connect Dave to it.

Yeah, yeah, I remember, like, we were at some party, And I had announced that, like, not even really thinking. Do you remember? Yeah. And I was like, oh, and he's our donor. And we were honoring Dave at the event. And it was like, oh! Obviously not everyone knows that. Wow. That maybe was a big joke. I mean, I think it's pretty common now.

Catherine: And I think he likes it now. Mm hmm. Cause she's so cute. That helps. But, um, I think at the beginning it was just, like, how he was concerned, how it was gonna affect his dating, and if women would see him differently. But I think he's gotten enough people being like, oh, we think it's the coolest thing, and it's not a, it's not, it shouldn't be seen as a threat. And anyone that would see it as a threat, this is what other people have said to him, is like, I don't think that that would be your person. 

Julia: For David, it's not just about worrying that people he's dating might have a problem with this situation. It's also that talking about this in public at first meant he had to explain the whole situation. And when Quinn was first born, he was still practicing that.

David: I remember I was at a friend's house and she must have been a month old, maybe not even. And at that party, there was maybe like 20 people. It was just daytime. We were out by the pool and maybe two of the people there. I had told already and one of them just like across the party just goes Hey, do you have that kid yet? And the other 18 just like heads jolted me like single David like what is John talking about? And I'm like, yep, and I think everybody else thought That this was like some joke between us and, uh, and he's like, that's awesome. How's she doing? And of course people are just like, try to comprehend, like, wait, they're still talking. Is this a joke or is this for real? And this one of the other guys looks at me and goes. Wait, you had a kid? And I was like, yeah. And they're like, oh, wow, so you're a father. And I was like, well... And he's like, well, do you have a kid or not?

And I was like, I have a biological kid. And he's like, then you're a father. And so it's very interesting people's stance on this. They're like, this is my stance that like, if there is a child out there that's biologically yours, you're a father. Uh, and, and so that's the part where I'm like, what am I, a father? 

Julia: When I first met David at that group dinner, the thing that made me want to record our conversation was when he brought up this subject, how he defines a father. He broke down the word into three different roles, which really helped me categorize myself as a fairy godmother better. David views these three roles of a father like a buffet.

Some people take on one of those roles or two or all three.

David: One being biological, two being a role model, and three being a parent. And so, in my situation, I'm a biological father. And I'm a role model, but I'm not a parent. Because I'm not there doing the day to day stuff. A stepfather could be... A role model and could be parenting, but he's not biological or a stepfather could be parenting, but not a role model. Maybe the kids hate him and don't want to have anything to do with him, but he's still there parenting. And then sometimes there's biological fathers that are not parenting and are not role models. 

And so then you have like a stepdad where the kids might be like, yeah, that's my dad. And so, does that make that person the father? I would say so. And they probably consider themselves the father. Especially, you know, in these situations where they've been in the kid's life when they're really young. And so, I kind of came up with the framework of like, Okay, well, right now I'm a donor. I'm David to Quinn. At some point down the road, if she decides to declare me dad, then I'll be dad. But, that's really up to her to decide. 

They've been pretty open that like, as soon as she asks, it's going to be like, Oh, they know that guy that's hanging around all the time that sometimes babysits you. That's your dad. or your biological father, your bio dad, right? So however they want to reference it.

It's like dad, father, they're like pretty much synonymous, but like there needs to be another one, another word that's like makes these things clear in the English language. And maybe in other languages, there's more words to do these things to describe these things. 

Julia: Now that Quinn is here, there are other parts of their relationship to navigate besides semantics. David, Cat, and Emily are all very good friends and live in the same city, so navigating their boundaries has been important. 

David: I remember pretty early on there was something where they were like, I literally had like every night free except like this one thing, one night that I really wanted to do. And they were like, can you babysit? And it's that time. And I felt some pressure to be like, Oh, I, I should say yes to this. And I remember thinking like, okay, well, if we're here, we're like two or three months into this and I'm already Compromising what we had discussed in terms of expectations because like I'm feeling pressure That like, Oh, like I'm this very important role in her life.

And so I need to make myself available. And I thought, well, that wasn't what we discussed ahead of time. And like, if I'm already going to make that sacrifice now, then maybe that's not setting the right precedent. So like. I responded to them and said, like, that's the only time I have something, like, I will babysit for her any other night this week, just let me know.

it's challenging just for me, personally, internally, because... I want to show up for people, especially people that close to me. And I felt like they were asking me and I wanted to be able to do it.

 The part that was great was their response. I was like, that's fine. Like, there's no, there's no expectation, you don't have to and so that was cool. And that like made me feel way more comfortable and so the relationship between us on it is great. 

Julia: The boundaries go both ways. Cat and Emily had to decide what environment they wanted to create in their family between their daughter and her biological dad. 

Emily: There was a time where Dave was, like, I could tell he maybe wanted to be over more, or wanted to be introduced to Quinn more often, and we were just, like, Hey, just like let us know if you want to stop by and he was really like waiting for us to be like, hey We want you here during these times but then once we were like Hey If you like are in the neighborhood and you want to feel like you want to come by just like tell us Yeah, and so I think once we started opening our communication more where he felt like invited to do things like that I think that's when things like in terms of our connection got even closer. So that was pretty cool. But obviously like we're in a unique scenario we're not like a one fits all and and coming in with the expectation of like If it's a known donor, like, they may or may not be involved. And for us, like, we sort of chosen that we're open to it, and then it's working. Um, but life has ebbs and flows, and like, you know, there's different circumstances.

David: And I thought that was also really cool of like really making it clear that like the doors open for me to be as involved as I want to be. Obviously, if I really start pushing the envelope, they might push back, but knowing that, like, I've been trying to make sure I don't step over any boundaries, for example, um, you know, if there's stuff like around parenting that maybe I would think I would do differently, I've just been like, like, that's how they're choosing to do it.

 So I think they've, you know, probably felt that and recognize that like I've been not pushing anything, but then inviting me in to spend more time with her and be more involved if I want to, which has been really cool. We're definitely in alignment on Um, on how we're not co parenting, but co like, I don't know, co familying. 

David: music

Julia: words, I have to say I really love that one, co familying.

So, I experienced something big and unexpected when I donated my eggs. A total shift in my own desire to have kids. 

For many years, I just assumed I'd have children of my own one day. So, I waited and searched and waited to meet that special someone who would get me pregnant. But the years went by and no one showed up.

I started experiencing an anxiety that I think many women feel with each passing birthday. I saw the window of opportunity for biological kids closing and the pressure kept building. I felt this sense of doom, failure. But then when I donated my eggs, suddenly it felt like the pressure valve that had been building inside of me It was released.

I didn't meet a romantic partner. I didn't get pregnant, but my body helped to make babies. It's almost like the biological clock stopped. I still feel it, but it doesn't rule me anymore. The curiosity about kids is there, but the pressure it's gone. I feel more relaxed now about partnership and kids. My entire future feels more expansive.

And so I wondered how this experience might have changed David's view on becoming a parent himself.

David: I think as I've gotten older, I've gone from like definitely wanting my own kids to being like maybe 50 50 and my answer now is usually like, well, I don't know. I don't have a partner. Like I would need a partner and then me and her would need to decide that together. And so that's been my stance.

I started thinking just in like the last two days, like, wow, there's so many people that want to have a kid. And then they struggle with this, like, do I want to give up the life that I have now? At least, you know, in, in my circle, you know, as I've gotten into my mid to late thirties, and there's more people that they've, you know, you get a decade of living out on your own, and traveling, and doing all these fun things, and you're like, oh, I'm gonna commit to having to give up a lot of that for years and years with a kid.

And I realized, I was like, wait, did I hit the jackpot that like I can have a biological kid. I can go hang with her whenever I want. But then if I want to go to Europe for a month I can just go do that. Now I'm sure I would love my kids and they'd be amazing and I'd be like, oh I, you know, don't regret any bit of it, but that's the human experience is like you always, you know, are happy with whatever choice you make because otherwise we'd be miserable.

Julia: When the three of them decided to have a baby together, there were many unknowns about how their family would look and function once Quinn arrived. While there have been challenges and times when they've had to navigate new things, all three of them say, the one thing they didn't expect was how big and loving the family they would create would feel.

David: My sister doesn't have kids of her own, I don't have kids of my own. And so my parents have this grandkid now, and so Catherine and Emily have been great about including my family. My sister's an aunt now. This is the bonus family. So Quinn is lucky to have three sets of grandparents, has an extra aunt. Uh, and my parents are actually the ones that spend the most time here. So they've been the ones that have been able to help out the most with babysitting and they love it. So that's a huge bonus and gift that like, I wasn't expecting that to be the case when we, when I said yes to them. So that's been really cool. 

Emily: I'm from Indiana, and I don't have my family here, and Kat is from Ireland, Dave's parents., they've shown up in a big way, and they split time between here and Connecticut, So, there's this whole bonus family, and, like, even to the extent of, like, we had a registry, and we're like, Who are the, like, we're getting gifts from people, we're like, Who are these people? And they're like, Oh, you know, that's, uh, Dave's dad's best friend from high school, from forever, for 25 years, and we're like, This is so cool! Like, we, Like, we have all these, like, it was just wild, um, the people that came out of the woodwork. It was so, so cool. 

Catherine: Yeah, we were also so, we were like, how are you explaining this to these family members? I was so curious. But, yeah, his parents have been amazing, and his sister lives in Austin, and she actually, um, started fostering six weeks after Quinn was born, and so now we have this, kind of like a cousin dynamic, the, the girl that she had, she fostered is six, and Quinn knows her and she knows, and they're so Quinn together. They're sweet together. So cute. And they both sort of came into our world at the same time, even though they're different ages. 

You know, maybe Dave will have par other kids in the future, but right now this is their first like biological grandchild. And so, you know, I think at the beginning, right before Quinn was born, they sort of were a little cautious around what to say. And we were like, the more, more people love this kid, the better. And so we're, we're just thinking like, Oh yeah, this, we now have an extra set of grandparents. 

Julia: When Kat was talking about the love she has for her family and bonus family, she mentioned a popular phrase many of us have heard, that blood is thicker than water. Many of us have understood this to mean that we have a stronger bond with the people we share DNA or blood with. But the actual meaning, in Old Testament language, actually means the opposite.

Catherine: The original saying is, blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of the womb, which essentially means that your chosen people in your life Should be considered higher than your blood relatives. And so when I think of family, I think of, like, Dave and Emily. And, like, the people that I've chosen that, like, share my, my values that are in my life. Of course I have my, like, blood relatives, but I, I like the idea that you can choose your family. So we have Dave, and we have Dave's sister, and she's fostering. And then we have Dave's parents, and we have Emily. And it's just all these people that, you know, I, I didn't grow up and have known me my whole life. And... We've just created this new reality, um, that none of us had before, which is pretty amazing. 

Emily: Family means the folks that show up for you. Right? It's the people that are there in the moments where you're vulnerable, and you're not necessarily feeling strong, and And those who also want to celebrate you fully. I think Cat and I have been really lucky to have supportive family. That's not the story for a lot, a lot of these configurations, right? And so we feel like incredibly blessed to have that. And yeah, we're, we're learning what it means to be family, and so for me it means showing up and for each other, and, I mean, we've, we've been through a lot of transitions and a lot of new, new and exciting things, and it can be exhausting, and it's like, how you show up when you are exhausted.

music

David: We went to this wedding, my parents babysat for Quinn for like four days while we were at this wedding out of town. And... I remember being there, it was like the second night, it was like a multi party wedding, like just lots of events with everybody. And I'm just standing, talking to this guy, I just met for the first time.

He's like, oh, so who'd you come with? And I looked across and, and saw Catherine and pointed at her and I said, oh, I came with my family. And I thought, oh, that's so cool, like they are family. And that, that was the moment I realized that like, Oh, I had done this thing is like, for my friends, I didn't expect that they were going to become family, like we're going to become so close and, and now they are.

Julia: Thank you to David, Kat, and Emily for sharing your story with us. And thank you for listening to Refamulating. Next week, we'll hear a story of refamulating brought to you by the results of a DNA test. 

Alexis Hourselt: I called my sister. And I said, I just got my DNA results back and it's saying that dad isn't my dad. And it's saying that I'm black. 

Julia: you definitely want to hear it. And we want to hear how you're refamulating. If you want to share your family's story, send us an email or a voice memo to hello at refamulating dot com.

You can also send us a message on Instagram at refamulating. If you like this podcast, please share it with someone. You can also write us a review. We want everyone who's refamulating to be able to find us. We also have a newsletter every month. We send out a list of books, podcasts, articles, and other resources that talk about refamulating topics.

Our sub stack is also a place to get bonus content. If you become a paid subscriber that is linked in our show notes. As an independent podcast, we're also super grateful for any financial support. You can make a donation at our website, refamulating. com. Refamulating is hosted by me, Julia Winston.

Claire McInerney is our executive producer. Grace Berry is our manager of engagement. Nadia Hamdan gave us editorial support on this episode. This episode was mixed and scored by Josh Gilbert. Our theme music was composed by Luke Topp. Refamulating is a production of the Feelings Co. Network.