04: Professionally Pregnant: For this mom, being a surrogate is not a job, it’s a calling

When Jen was pregnant with her daughter, she had one of those unicorn pregnancies you never hear about in real life: she wasn’t tired or sick, and she felt energized by it all. But she and her husband didn’t want more biological kids, so Jen started thinking about how she could experience the magic of pregnancy again. That’s when she became a surrogate and found her life’s purpose. 

__

Episode transcript is below. Transcripts may not appear in their final form.

__

Julia Winston: I'm Julia Winston, and this is Refamulating, a podcast that explores different ways to make a family.  

Kelly Clarkson: Congratulations. Oh my. You baby boy. Right? Thank you baby boy. Uh, 

Khole Kardashian: It definitely was, you know, just a different way. I did surrogacy. Yeah. 

Julia: In 2022, Khloe Kardashian went on Kelly Clarkson’s talk show and casually talked about having her second child via surrogacy. 

Khole Kardashian: it's amazing. I had reasons why I couldn't carry myself. Me too. Right. And it's, it's such a blessing that we have this. And I, my sister Kim had two babies through surrogacy. She had two that she carried on her own and her last two are through surrogacy. If it wasn't for Kimberly, I definitely don't think I would have been as comfortable. I wouldn't have been aware. I wouldn't have known as much. 

Julia: There is nothing particularly special about this interview, and I’m not a huge Kardashian fan. I play it because this kind of casual conversation about fertility and surrogacy on daytime TV…wouldn’t have happened even a decade ago. 

Many of us were told conversations around fertility and family planning were inappropriate, so keep that to yourself. But Khloe mentions that watching her sister, Kim Kardashian, use surrogates helped demystify the experience for her. 

The normalization of surrogacy seems to be becoming more widespread. Even if we don’t know someone who used one, there are more and more examples in pop culture. In the last few years, Paris Hilton, Crissy Teigan, Gabrielle Union and other celebrities have openly talked about their surrogacy experiences.

But all these celebrity examples only give us a glimpse of surrogacy from the perspective of the intended parent- a word you'll hear a lot in this episode that refers to the person or people who will raise the child. 

The main narrative we've been given about surrogacy is that it helps people who can’t carry babies or give birth, have biological families.

But what about the surrogates themselves? What are their stories? As someone who donated my eggs to help a same-sex male couple start a biological family, I was curious to learn more about the experience of the other key player in a refamulating scenario like mine - a surrogate. 

When I was asked to donate my eggs, I had to do a lot of personal reflection about my future relationship to these imaginary kids. People close to me, especially people who’ve had children, worried that I might get too attached. “I could never do that,” they said.

For me, being the source of DNA feels more like a cool connection to the kids, rather than an attachment. If I had been asked to carry the children, on the other hand, that would have given me pause. I could totally picture myself getting attached if I felt them actually growing in my body. 

But I've heard other people say that the opposite might be true, that sharing DNA with a child would make them feel more attached. 

It's obviously personal… but I wanted to dig into questions like this with someone who actually serves as a surrogate. What is it like to carry a child and do the intense physical labor on behalf of someone else? 

In my own experience, once I donated my eggs I wasn't really involved in the process, and didn't have a relationship with the surrogate the egg daddies used. So I wasn't privy to the ups and downs. 

But luckily...I found Jen. 

Jen: I just love the feeling of growing a baby, like being able to feel the baby moving in your stomach, just knowing that there's a life in there. It's just, I don't know, everything's just very magical. I have friends that get very sick in pregnancy and I completely sympathize. But for me it's, it's been such a positive experience. 

Julia Winston: Jen is 38, and has spent most of the last decade pregnant… or trying to get pregnant. That’s because Jen is a surrogate, and she’s given birth to five babies for other families.  

Jen lives in the mountains of Northern California with her two daughters, her husband and lots of animals- dogs, horses, chickens and peacocks- all together on their small ranch.

I had so many questions for Jen- because I felt like I could connect with her on some level. I know what it feels like to use your body to help someone else have a family. I also know how taxing it is to do IVF. But my situation was pretty different from what Jen does. I was helping a couple I was friends with, donating my eggs as a gift. Jen works with families she doesn’t know, carrying their babies as a form of paid work. 

But before surrogacy was even a twinkle in her eye, Jen built her own family. That started when she met her husband and quickly fell in love…

Jen: We fully committed to each other in January and in February we actually found out I was pregnant. So, we hadn't been expecting that and both of us just looked at each other and we're like, we want to keep it. You know, let's see where this goes. 

Pregnancy was really easy for me. Uh, I didn't have any of the side effects. I didn't actually believe that happened to women. I thought for sure you get the nausea, you get the aches and pains. And I didn't have any of that. My daughter was not a big kicker. So she was very gentle. And the whole process was just so calm and sweet. And I didn't expect that because you hear so many negative things about pregnancy and how hard it is on women. And it definitely can be. I just... was one of those lucky ones.

Julia: She even loved giving birth to her daughter. Things didn’t go exactly as she planned- her doula was late and her husband was nervous- but she felt empowered after the experience. 

Jen: I think it was a year or two later, and we just said, you know, I don't think we want to have another one of our own. We, we both have some funky biological background. I absolutely adore my daughter. She's just turned out to be an amazing kid. And so we thought, you know, some of the risks that our family has just biologically, we could be taking those same risks and be helping children that need a home or a temporary home at least. And so when we decided that we wanted to do foster care, we just talked about, and I told him, I said, I miss being pregnant. I really miss the feeling and I know I still can be.  

Julia: So Jen and her husband started fostering children, and eventually adopted their second daughter. While she and her husband were building their own family, a relative of Jen’s was also trying to have kids. He’s a gay man, and he used a surrogate. 

Like Khloe Kardashian, seeing someone close to her use a surrogate helped Jen understand what the process actually looks like. 

And that’s when something clicked. 

Jen could be pregnant again and she could do it for someone else. 

And so she became a surrogate, and her first pregnancy couldn't have gone better.

Jen: the whole thing was wonderful, but the actual labor and delivery was probably my favorite part. I think giving birth is so fun, I really do. Especially if you have a doula. I don't think I could do it without a doula. 

We had this funny little Hawaiian doctor. He was just, he was really cool. He played over the rainbow on his ukulele during the labor, and um, when I did give birth and the dads took that baby into their arms and they held him and they called him sunshine. It was like, it was very magical, very special, and I just felt lucky to be a part of it. 

Julia Winston: What role do you think that the success of that surrogacy played in you wanting to continue down this path? 

Jen: I think it made a huge impact, just how wonderful the intended parents were. They were nothing but... Sweet and kind to us. It's been 10 years and I'm still in touch with them. They send us a little gift every Christmas and we get their yearly letter. I know surrogates have had a much tougher first journey. And I think if I didn't have that connection with my intended parents that I really wanted, if I had just gone for an out of country couple that let's say, We had a hard time speaking the same language or something. For me, that just, that would have been a lot harder. I really wanted a connection and I, and that's exactly what I got.

Julia: Okay, let’s just rewind for a second though because, unsurprisingly, being a surrogate involves a lot of logistics. 

For Jen, the first step was to find an agency. The agency would match her with intended parents and handle all the logistics. 

After finding an agency, Jen had to go through a series of physical, genetic and psychological screenings to make sure she was a good fit to become a surrogate - I went through a similar process as an egg donor. 

But one thing that surprised me about surrogacy, is that most agencies want surrogates to have already had their own children. 

Jen: They always say you wanna be kind of done with your family if you're gonna be a surrogate. I've seen a lot of people that are very young go, oh, I wanna be a surrogate, but I've never had a child. Why won't they let me? Um, it's because there is a chance you could lose all your reproductive organs possibly and not be able to have another child. And there are surrogates out there that actually are now intended parents because of things like that. 

Julia Winston: Surrogates who ended up being unable to have children of their own and now require surrogates to help them have biological children?

Jen: Whether, whether they got remarried and decided, oh, you know what, I'm not done yet, or whatever it is. Yes, there is. 

Julia: After passing the initial screenings, Jen worked with the agency to find the right family. She knew she wanted them to be local so that they could go to doctor’s appointments together.

Jen: My very first couple was a gay couple because I requested a gay couple because the person I knew who had their child through a surrogate was a gay couple who had been trying, you know, to have children. And that was something that I really felt strongly about. My doula, she's a lesbian, she's one of my best friends. She had hopes of having children one day too. And so just being part of that community was important to me to be able to do that for the first time.

Julia Winston: The couple was trying to have their second child, and they were thrilled to be involved in every part of the pregnancy, which Jen loved. They went with Jen to doctor's appointments. They attended her oldest daughter’s birthday party and had their nanny watch Jen’s kids when the three of them went to OB appointments. She really felt loved and supported by this couple.  

This first pregnancy was also her introduction to the legal side of surrogacy. Before the IVF process began, Jen and the dads signed a contract explaining the terms of their partnership. The main purpose was to make sure the surrogate, and egg donor, have no parental rights over the child. But Jen says the contracts can also get more granular. 

Jen: You can add little things like I've had intended parents that don't mind if I dye my hair and I have intended parents I would prefer I don't dye my hair the whole pregnancy and some that would like me to not do it in the first trimester only. So all those little things get added to the contract and I think that's totally fine. You just have to make sure what you're putting in the contract is really important to you because something could cause a match to go wrong that maybe wasn't that important. You know, for me, I am very sensitive to my intended parents' needs, but I'm also very busy mom and I don't know if I could keep a journal about every time I exercised and every time I ate something and it, it's a little too much. I'm already a homeschool mom, , you know, I'm already doing my homework a lot. . 

Julia: This is, this brings up the whole topic of how much say an intended parent has over the body of another human being while they're pregnant with the intended parent's child. 

Jen: That was a big conversation recently in one of my surrogate groups. A intended parent was very upset that the surrogate did not want her to touch her stomach. And it was one of those things that some people are like, well, it is her baby, so why shouldn't she be able to feel her baby moving? And other people are like, well, that's the surrogate's body and you can't just touch people unwanted. And they were already very far into this pregnancy. 

For me, I wish that had been talked about ahead of time, but that's not something anybody in our groups had like even thought about. I think one side just assumed it would go one way and the other side just assumed it would go the other way. And nobody ever even thought to talk about it during a match meeting. But there are little things that you need to think about. They don't necessarily need to go in the contract. I wouldn't put: she can touch my stomach in the contract. That'd be a little bizarre. But just having that conversation and anything you wanna lay out on the table, you have to do it during the match meeting.

So the match meeting's important. Everybody wants to be polite at the match meeting. Everyone wants to say yes to everything, especially if the intended parent has been waiting. You know, some intended parents wait over a year for their surrogate, and if that match doesn't work, then they could be waiting another year. So don't say, you know, just, you can't say yes to everything. You have to really be true to yourself on if it's a good match or not. 

Julia: The legality of surrogacy varies wildly… depending on where you live.

It’s not even legal, or recognized, in most countries. The US is one of the few that allows surrogacy, and even then it changes depending on what state you’re in. Jen lives in California, which has some of the most supportive laws for both surrogates and intended families. 

Jen: I have heard there's lots of other states that are not surrogate friendly and that's when it gets scary. Here, when you get your birth certificate, it has the intended parents' name. My name is never on the birth certificate. It is not an adoption. It is very clear their children and we sign all the paperwork way ahead of time for that. In other states, it becomes more of an adoption, and your surrogate does have her name on the birth certificate, or you have, you know, you have to go to court and almost fight for your own child as an intended parent.

Julia: Here’s a very general overview of how that looks in the U.S. 

A handful of states, like Michigan, Louisiana and Nebraska, don’t recognize contracts for surrogacy. That means there are no legal protections for the intended parents or the surrogate if something goes sideways.

California, Nevada, Washington, Colorado and a handful of other states do recognize surrogacy contracts.

The rest of the states fall somewhere in the middle.

We have a link in our show notes if you want to learn about surrogacy laws in your state. 

Compared to other countries, the American surrogacy process focuses on making sure both the surrogate and intended parents have a say, and that the surrogate is properly compensated. There are also more medical requirements here than in other countries, which makes surrogacy in the U.S. pretty   expensive. 

Intended parents usually spend 50 to 100 grand on the process, but really the cost can get as high as 200,000. It all depends on the legal fees, if the family needs an egg donor, and all of the medical costs. So how much of that money goes to surrogates like Jen? 

Jen: That is an extremely common question. It's not the same as if you're working a full-time job. It's not, you know, the amount of hours that go into surrogacy is 24 7 for, you know, ideally 10 months. But at the same time, you know, my last one didn't stick, so we're having to try again. So I don't wanna give the exact amount because it really varies. A first time surrogate, you know, it can go in some states, I guess. Maybe $30,000, but I've heard of surrogates getting a hundred thousand in, you know, Hollywood or something like that. You know, it really depends on what the intended parents focus is. If they want an experienced surrogate, if they want a surrogate to follow a certain diet plan, you know, I've had surrogates that are supposed to write down in a journal every day what they exercised and what food they ate. And then there's other surrogates that, you know, things are a little more relaxed for.

So it, it's huge variation. Um, I don't know any surrogates that do it for the money, you know, you are supposed to show, especially with an agency that you are financially doing just fine. They do not want people in America doing surrogacy because they're desperate for money. Same reason they don't want anybody doing surrogacy, you know, that doesn't have a child Yet.. You know, you've gotta kind of have some boundaries on this to make sure that people are doing it for the right reason. There are altruistic surrogates that do it for no money other than, you know, like covering the hospital expenses and things like that. But it's a huge variation. I just like, I do wanna put out there that most surrogates really aren't doing it for the money. It's not that much money, like with the risks you're taking. 

Julia Winston: Yeah. It seems like you have to have a really strong sense of purpose and, and intrinsic motivation to do something like this, that the, the incentive is not the money.

Jen: I would think so. I mean, every surrogate I've, I've met really talks like I do about it. They, they did it for the experience more than anything, you know? And usually it's people like me that didn't have an absolute horrible time with pregnancy that love being pregnant or have like that connection like I do, where they saw a family member that was able to use a surrogate. So they have that in their heart. You know, it's not so much you wake up in the morning and you just go, oh, I feel like being a surrogate today. There's so much thought and research put into it before you do it. There's so many other ways to make a ton of money that, that you're not risking your body and taking time from your family and all those things. 

Julia: Jen mentioned the risks a few times- which is something I want to underscore. Giving birth in the U.S. has gotten more dangerous in recent years. The number of women who die during labor is growing, especially for Black women. The US is the only developed country with a growing maternal mortality number...

Also...more than a third of women have some sort of health issue after giving birth. These range from depression and anxiety to pain during sex to infertility.

Jen: There is a lot of risk of surrogacy, just like any pregnancy. Um, sometimes higher because of IVF. So, you know, you do risk even things like losing your uterus, you know, I, I actually have it in my contract that if I am put on life support only to support the babies, , um, that the intended parents do pay for therapy during that time. I'm on life support for my family because you can't grieve losing someone when they're still on life support for a ba just purely to give the baby a couple more days or whatever. 

Julia: But Jen accepts the risks. When we come back, we'll hear details about being a surrogate: the good, the challenging, and the pregnancy belt that holds it all together.

Jen's next two surrogacy experiences were similar to the first one. She enjoyed being pregnant. She had successful births. And...she felt connected to each family.

Jen: All three of my first intended parents were really great. You know, we stay in touch. I've still seen pictures of the kids. It just, it felt like friends, you know, not necessarily a friend that lives next door that you go and have coffee with every single day. But it felt like friends that, you know, we check in with each other. We ask how your kids are doing, you know, um, during the pregnancy they would text or call or we'd visit and it was awesome. You know, it really, it felt very warm and I knew that this baby is definitely something that they really wanted, cuz half the conversation would be totally focused on how excited they were to become parents. 

Julia Winston: But Jen’s fourth surrogacy didn’t go as smoothly. The agency had connected her with a single, gay father trying to have his second child. 

Jen: So, hearing his plight that, you know, he wanted a sibling... I was like, well, you know, I think I could do that. That could be fun.

So we did a match meeting and, uh, he was very, very nice. Uh, very excited to get started. He'd been waiting kind of a while. And he didn't want the kids to be too far apart in age. So, we went to his IVF clinic. Um, he didn't come to the first appointments, but we video chatted during them. So, I felt like he was there for the appointments, you know, as much as he could be. We did the... The transfer, and a couple weeks later The IVF doctor actually told us at first he thought there was triplets. Yeah, it was pretty, it was actually kind of scary because body wise I am a little bit older into my surrogacy journeys. I'm not trying to carry three babies. That's a little, little much and the intended parent really kind of freaked out. I think it really scared him. The idea of being a single father with one toddler And three babies on the way, possibly. 

Julia: Jen got an ultrasound the next day, and they found out she was pregnant with twins, not triplets. Jen had been a surrogate three times, but she'd never carried twins. So she was understandably a little nervous...and she expected the intended father would step up and be her partner during this pregnancy, but...pretty quickly, Jen realized this relationship was going to be different. 

Jen: He kind of stopped messaging me as much, he stopped calling, he wasn't even really talking to the agency. But he kind of stopped communicating with me and for me that was hard because my last intended parents have all been very communicative, very supportive. I totally understood that this was very overwhelming for him, but I was also suddenly pregnant with twins, not expecting it. And I kind of needed us to be able to support each other.

That got a little lonely. My agency was very nice. They were there for me, best they could be. Um, went to the next few appointments by myself. He didn't video chat, you know, he wasn't there. I did ask my agency if they'd talk to him. I think they only talked to him like once and they were like, yeah, we think he's just really overwhelmed with the idea of how as a single father, he's going to manage a toddler and twins.

Julia: Toward the end of the first trimester, Jen was getting ready for a big doctor's appointment where they would do an ultrasound that would tell her and the dad more about the twins and what to expect from the pregnancy. But the day before the appointment, things took a turn.

Jen: Unfortunately we did have a miscarriage at 11 weeks. Because it was twins, there was something called, um, an S C H, which is a, like, kind of a big ball of blood that was behind them, which is very common in I v F. It can also be common with twins. I lost a lot of iron and, um, being that it was twins, I was already, um, much more tired than normal. And I think a lot of that had to do with the amount of iron that two babies kind of take versus one. And, and so I ended up having to go to the ER. 

Julia: She went to the ER because during the miscarriage she fainted and lost consciousness. Fortunately, IV fluids kept her awake while she completed the miscarriage. 

Jen was out of the woods, but the pregnancy didn’t make it. Once she was okay, Jen told the intended dad what happened and… 

Jen: I did get a message from him just saying, you know, I hope Hope you're doing okay after it happened. He did discuss with the agency me going ahead and trying again because usually with surrogates you agree to try three times If you mentally and physically feel like you can. You don't have to . I still wanted to be a surrogate. I still wanted that birth I still wanted that joyful feeling of bringing a baby into the world and we thought hey, what's the chance of another split? It's a very small chance. This happened once wasn't meant to be You know, hopefully this is a singleton this time. Let's try again. And they ordered me my medication, got my medication, and a week before I started he decided to cancel. And so I just never heard from him again. 

So that one just kind of left me feeling a little abandoned, I guess. Where I know a lot of surrogates like to have more of a connection with their intended parents, where they don't feel like they were just, you know, A breeding machine or something like that. You know, you, you are a person, you do have a family. Obviously me going through miscarriage, all these things affected my family as well. And so I just wanted some recognition that, like, Hey, I'm here, I'm a person. And I'm really sorry this happened to you, but I'm sorry it happened to me too.

Julia: Earlier, I talked about attachment to babies that aren’t your own. It’s something I had to wrestle with a lot, and I was curious to hear about Jen’s experience.

Jen: It feels like a friend's child to me. And there's love there. There's worry and concern that, you know, they're healthy and they're growing. Um, the time that we did find out was twins. I was excited to see two heartbeats, you know, but it doesn't feel motherly. It feels like an auntie or a very close friend, someone that just wants to protect your child and see that they, you know, do end up living their best life. Um, and I think I kind of took on that same perspective with foster care. You know, they're not your children and for me, it's very easy to separate that but still be concerned and still be loving and still, you know, like I said, like an auntie would mother a child, but not be the mother of a child. You know, there's boundaries there. 

Jen: A lot of us really don't like when people tell us about how they could never do it because they'd be too attached to the baby. It's a really harsh thing to hear because we are attached. It's just in a different way. We've been able to take the mindset of doing what's best for the baby. I saw someone say surrogates must have no maternal instinct. And I thought that was very harsh because even though I don't feel sadness when that baby's going to their family, I feel happiness because I know that's what's best for the baby, is their child. 

Julia Winston: Did that come naturally to you, or is that something you've had to sort of train yourself to do, to hold these boundaries in knowing that you're not the parent?

Jen: It came more naturally with surrogacy than it did for foster care. Honestly. I think foster care and adoption carries a little bit more heaviness. A little more sadness. You do worry about where they're gonna go afterwards, Foster children and adoptive children have been through trauma. It doesn't feel the same way when it comes to surrogacy. You know, they're built with love. They're, everything is all about that child from, you know, A to Z the whole time. And with foster care and adoption, it's, it's not like that. 

Julia: Jen has a lot of compassion for children who have been adopted. Yes, she adopted one of her children from the foster care system, as you might recall… and she was adopted herself. 

Jen: It was never a secret. It was always, I was always able to ask questions and eventually I kind of started looking into it more myself and I have been introduced to some of my birth family, um, through different channels. It was, they handled the, especially as a young child, I think very properly. I will say, there wasn't a lot of support for adoptive families at that time. And so, encouragement was to be so overly positive about adoption, that later on as a teenager and as an adult, when you start to get feelings about Um, coming out of what they call the fog a little bit, we're starting to understand that, uh, there was loss involved, you know, there's, there's blood relations there that you don't know, you may never know, there's, uh, you know, certain, uh, health history you may never know, things like that, that I feel like, Maybe shouldn't have been quite so glorified at a younger age where I would have been more comfortable with the negative stuff as I got a little older. Uh, the negative stuff kind of was actually more of a shock to me when I started coming, those things started coming to light.

Julia: Being adopted helped Jen understand, from an early age, that families can be created in many different ways.

It primed her to think about family more expansively. There are people out there who share her DNA, but she doesn’t have the same emotional attachment to them as the family who raised her. 

There are different kinds of love, and Jen knows how to hold that complexity. Her own adoption helped her realize she could raise two daughters of her own and carry babies for others - and approach both experiences with love. They’re just different kinds of love.

This isn’t easy for everyone to wrap their head around. Jen gets a lot of comments and questions about being a surrogate, and I was curious what the general response was.

Jen: people say very nice things. My last ultrasound, the gal was like saying just such sweet things and I just told her, she goes, you're so sweet for doing this. I said, I'm crazy, but it's a good kind of crazy. 

My husband's not the type of guy to just say no,  you know, he's very, very,  um, backs me up 100% no matter how kind of crazy my ideas are.  Um, my daughter has always been involved in the process. She was only three through the first surrogacy, but she's 12 now. And so as she's gotten older, we always ask her, you know, how do you feel about mom doing Another surrogacy? It's never been weird to her cuz it's just always been a part of her life. And she also knew that, you know, this family member had had kids through a surrogate. So we're very open with her about everything. 

My  mom on the other hand, was not super comfortable with it.  Um, she was kind of confused at why we weren't gonna have more children of our own. And I do think part of that comes from because she just wasn't able to herself.  Um,  she's very worried about my health. I am her only daughter, you know, and so she just worries that something could happen to me and I'm, I am risking it for another family. Uh, but as we've gone on, she's kind of accepted it.  Other than that, I, all my friends have been supportive. You know, I've never had, I know some surrogates that have had like nasty comments from people, and I've never had that. Everyone's always been very pleasant. Hmm. Confused maybe, but pleasant.

Julia: After the miscarriage with the twins, Jen knew she wasn't done being a surrogate. But working with the hands-off dad of her fourth surrogacy taught her she should be a little pickier about the families she worked with. She wanted the parents to be more involved if she was going to enjoy the process. 

Jen: I wanted to trust my gut a little bit more. Maybe ask a few more questions, make sure that I'm really on the same page at the match meeting with the intended parents. And, um, my next match meeting went wonderful. I absolutely love them, and I still absolutely love them. 

Julia: They're another gay couple, trying to have their first kid. 

they were adorable. Every appointment that I saw them at, they showed up with cupcakes for my kids or flowers for me or both, and just very adorable. appreciative, very sweet. The first two transfers that we tried, unfortunately, neither one took, and there was only one embryo left. So as a surrogate, I had a lot more anxiety for the intended parents. We did take a little break after the second one, so my body could just get back to normal before we started with medication again.

Julia: After a short break they tried again, and the third transfer worked! The first doctor's appointment was just to confirm the pregnancy had stuck. 

Jen: And we ended up going together. They met me there. And I actually had been a little more abnormally tired than usual. But I convinced myself, I'm just, you know, I'm a little bit older, maybe I'm just tired because I'm pregnant, and I'm a little bit older than I was, you know, my first pregnancies, and so when we went in there, and the, the guys are in there next to me, and the Um, the lady was looking at, you know, the image and she turns to us and she goes, I see two heartbeats. And they, it was like they didn't understand what she said. You know, the look on their faces was like, what? And, and, and that's what they asked. They said, What do you, what do you, what did you say? I see two heartbeats. It looks like you guys are having twins. And they were just in complete shock. And I just kind of looked over and I smiled at them and I was so happy to have a second chance at this for a couple that really wanted this. And I did have a tear in my eye. I just, It was pure happiness.

It was a little bit of nerves, because, you know, twins I know is going to be a harder, a harder thing to, a harder amount of babies to carry. Um, I will say that the miscarriage I had with twins was very, very hard. It was very scary. And so there was a little bit of that kind of fear and stuff, you know, well, I hope this just works. I hope this lasts, you know. I know this makes it a little bit higher chance of losing them because there's two in there. 

Julia: When I interviewed Jen, she was in the final trimester of this pregnancy with the twins. And if you were frustrated earlier hearing her talk about how easy pregnancy is, don't worry, the twins changed that for her. 

Jen: I definitely had more symptoms with this pregnancy that I did not have with singletons. Um, I'm, I feel bad because I feel like I'm just having what a lot of women probably had with singletons. Uh, just like in the first trimester, I was a little nauseous, I wasn't horribly sick, but I had a lot of trouble eating, you know, as much as I should. I had to struggle with protein, things like that. Um, so that... Was a little bit tougher, you know, I was a little bit, a lot tired, things like that. But it sounded like a first trimester that a lot of my friends that had singletons went through. So I'm kind of just getting what everybody else gets. Uh, second trimester, really wasn't bad at all, been very smooth. Uh, third trimester though, it's a lot heavier. Um, I've got, currently I'm 33 weeks pregnant and I've got Two babies that are slightly over five pounds in there right now.

Julia Winston: Wow.

Jen: and I can feel it. You know, my pelvis hurts a little more, I had to buy a belt, a special pregnancy belt, which I've never done before. Um, definitely lots of heartburn, lots of acid reflux, you know, you can't eat as much because there's two babies in there. So it's been tougher, but every appointment we go to, they do the ultrasound and they tell us how perfect these babies look. 

Julia: Jen gave birth to healthy twin boys earlier this year. She hadn’t given birth yet when we talked, but I wanted to know what her other experiences were like once she left the hospital. She gives birth, she hands off the babies, and she goes home. What now?

Jen: I am so happy to get back to my family and my pets and. , I have everything I've ever wanted. So for me, there's no, no real loss to it. And you know, like I said, I've had intended parents that still stay in touch with me. So, you know, they'll send a picture of the baby and as long as I know they're healthy and happy, I feel very good about it. Um, it does depend though, if you're pumping afterwards, which I pumped for 10 months with my first surrogate baby, he had, um, an issue with formula. With my second one I pumped for three months. You do, you know, you do get a certain amount of money to pump , uh, per week. But the amount doesn't honestly make up for the amount of time that you're pumping. 

Julia: Jen loves being pregnant, and all of her healthy deliveries added to this being a magical experience for her. But she's in her late 30s now and knows it will only get riskier to carry babies…

Jen: I am allowed to do one more surrogacy. Um, they do not let you have more than six deliveries, which, uh, whether it's C section or, uh, vaginal delivery. just, I love this. I absolutely love the whole process. And even when it goes not so well, it is like I told you before, you know, you learn something from all of it.

Um, I will be very picky about the intended parents again, though, just like I was this last time where I want someone I'm going to have a connection with again. You know, someone that if it was twins, they would be okay, or at least, you know, happy with it, that they are prepared for some of these unexpected things that do pop up, but we'll get through it together. Like if I can find a couple like that again, I would be very happy.

Julia Winston: Wow. I, so I'm just like jaw dropped, amazed that you want to do it again. You, you, it sounds like you just love it. Like, what do you love about being a surrogate?

Jen: Um, I just, uh, growing life is amazing, you know, and knowing, I think being adopted and, you know, seeing what foster care is like for kids, seeing so many kids that have rough starts in life, have families who maybe they want them, but they just struggle at the ability to take care of them. Sometimes you do have parents that don't like their kids or don't want their kids. In the surrogacy world, I get to be with parents that dream of children that, you know, they just, they've been hoping and wishing and praying and doing everything they can to hopefully be able to have that family that they always wanted. And, um, I love being a part of that. I, I love the positivity that I know these kids are going somewhere that they will for sure be loved, maybe a little spoiled, you know, exactly what kids deserve.

Julia: Whether Jen does another surrogacy or not, her time being pregnant will be over soon, and she's thinking about what comes next. 

She’s busy raising and homeschooling her two kids. But she's started to think about how she wants to spend her time when they're older. 

Jen: my goal is eventually when my kids are a little older to become an end of life doula. Uh, just like a birth doula is there for when babies are born to comfort the mother. I'd like to be there for people when they are passing away, especially when it's hard for their family to be. Um, I want to be the one that's there for the uncomfortable conversations that, uh, maybe need a little bit of guidance or a little bit of support with the family that's going through that. 

Julia: Jen's dream is to use her ranch in Northern California, as a place for this end of life work. 

Jen: I have big goals for our property. We plan to turn it into a place that people can come who are in their end stages of life, that can bring family, a priest, whatever. And we're trying to make it kind of where they can do lots of different things. We have four horses. We raise peacocks. We, you know, are doing, um, meat pigs right now. They can come pet the horses, they can walk around in the forest area we have.

I know death can make people very, very uncomfortable, which is totally understandable. Um, for me, I unfortunately, you know... As an adoptee, I did lose a chunk of my family. Um, and I knew that from a young age, uh, 12 years old, I lost my father. I continued to lose family up until around age 18, 19, you know, grandparents, uncles. It just kept going. So for me, death was a large part of growing up and, um, you can either sink down in a hole with that or you can see, you know, why that's just part of life. 

And when it came to, you know, being able to carry these babies and stuff like that, and be able to bring life into this world, I feel like it helped balance it out for me a little bit. It helped make me even more comfortable with what I had previously gone through knowing that that will happen to all of us. It's just the same that we're all born. We will all die. I don't want to be uncomfortable with either one of those. So I dive in deep with both of those. 

Julia: Have you ever met someone who you thought might actually be an angel? For me, Jen is definitely one of those people. In her world, the veil that separates birth and death is very thin.

Jen: Giving birth naturally is almost as close to death as you can get. Physical body is in extreme amounts of pain, but it's doing what it's supposed to do. It's completely natural. And when you pass away, that's completely natural. But both those things are, they're on the opposite end, but they, when you're in that moment, I feel like that's kind of what it's going to be like. This extreme moment that leads to some kind of peace. And that's how I feel giving birth. It's an extreme moment. It's very, Emotional, physically and mentally. And then there's peace after really when the baby, as soon as the baby kind of pops out, those shoulders come out, that heads out, the body's out. You just breathe. And it's, it's an interesting moment that I will miss. 

Julia: Talking to Jen made me feel more seen as an egg donor. Some people in my life don’t understand why I wanted to help someone else have babies, when I haven’t even had my own. And I struggle to explain it, all I can say is my gut told me it felt right. It just feels like part of my life’s purpose in some deep, strange way. 

Jen so clearly feels that giving birth for other people is part of her purpose. She sees herself as someone who is not only here to serve her own family, but to help other people start their families as well. 

There’s a life mantra I've been developing for many years that goes like this: “be grateful, stay open, give what you can, and enjoy the ride.” 

In Jen, I see someone who is truly living this mantra. She realized pregnancy was her happy place, and wanted to gift that experience to others.

Some people don't understand her calling- that's fine. She still does it. Jen is not afraid of loss, failure, or being misunderstood. In fact she embraces these things, painful as they may be, because she wouldn't get the magical experience of birth without them. 

02: Picture Perfect: A single dad’s journey to fatherhood

Tony Lilios always imagined himself as a father. When he was younger, the picture he had in head included a wife, a few kids, and a white picket fence. Then he came out as gay and had to totally re-think his family image. It took him almost 20 years, but finally Tony got a family that brings him so much love. And he couldn’t have done it without the help of two very special women.

Episode transcript is below. Transcripts may not appear in their final form.

__

Julia Winston: In the year that I've been producing this podcast, and since I created the word refamulating, I've been seeing it everywhere! Here are some real examples: 

I celebrated a friend who had a baby on her own because she hadn’t met a partner to do it with. She’s so courageous. She’s refamulating!

When a group of friends bought a plot of land to build a compound for family and friends, I thought holy shit - they’re living the dream! 

A colleague told me about how her father acknowledged his lifetime of alcoholism and expressed a desire to heal old wounds. As I thought about how much was changing in her family dynamic, I thought “wow, that’s also refamulating.” 

My friend’s transgender spouse was legally recognized as their baby’s parent, yay!, but part of me was pissed that they had to go through that process in the first place. But hey, that’s refamulating. 

Refamulating is a lot of things. When you’re breaking new ground, it stretches you, which is uncomfortable, but it can also be really exciting. Often, it’s all happening at the same time. Change can be intense, man! 

I’ve been feeling that through the process of becoming a fairy godmother. And now, there’s another thing. Recently I started dating a woman - which is kinda new for me - and I realized that for the first time in my life I’m not entering a relationship with some pre-written story about where it’s supposed to go. This is my latest version of refamulating. 

Ditching expectations is often the first step in refamulating. This was definitely true for Tony Lillios. For a lot of his life, he had a crystal clear image of how his future would unfold.  

Tony: If I was a painter, I could paint this painting. Like I feel like I have a specific white picket fence and house In my mind it must be like eight is enough or something like that where I got this image or something. there was definitely a spouse, a woman, uh, a wife. But yeah, I wanted a lot of kids. Um, I enjoyed being in a larger family and so I imagined having four kids of my own. Lliving somewhere, just like recreating what I knew. 

Julia Winston: What Tony knew, was a mom, a dad, a gaggle of kids, and a lot of love. And most of that picture was possible for Tony- except one part. The wife. 

Tony: When I first  came to terms with being gay,  I felt like my life just exploded. Like it was like a tornado, a hurricane, tornado came through and obliterated my life. Like all the pieces of papers of my lives, all the photo albums were just strewn up on the lawn and just destroyed. 

Julia Winston: I’m Julia Winston and this is refamulating, a podcast that gets curious about different ways to make a family. 

In this episode, we're going to tell the story of Tony and how he created a different picture, one that doesn't include a white picket fence or a wife, but is absolutely perfect for him.   

Tony: I grew up in suburban Connecticut and I always like to qualify, not like suburban Connecticut, like suburban New York City, Connecticut, but like middle of the state. Just, you know, plain old, middle class, uh, America. I was the youngest of four kids,  uh, with immigrant parents. One from Greece, one from Brazil.. I was the accident, I was an oops child, a five year gap to my siblings. Born and raised in the same house my whole childhood. Um, and very kind of average, wonderfully average.

Julia Winston: In his early 20s, Tony started to see his white picket fence picture come into focus when he fell in love with a woman named Mimi. He’d known her since high school and after college they both ended up in San Francisco. That's when he started courting her. He would send her gifts and poems…but she didn’t know who they were from.

Tony: That culminated into us a blind meeting at the, the Carnelian Room at the top of the Bank of America building.  where I was sitting there when I back to the room and in comes Mimi. So I needed some big transition from like friends to something more. Um, and she, you know, walks in and it's this huge, like, Oh my God, it's you, Tony. I can't believe it. I thought it was this person and that person. And Oh my gosh, I'm so glad it wasn't that guy because all my, it just kept going on and on. And then  finally I was like. Are you happy it's me?  There's this kind of this like magic moment. Oh my god. Yes um, and so Mimi and I dated for five years, um, she was um, really We were just so connected.

And  at some point there, there is, um,  a part of me that discovered I had an attraction to men.  which kind of blindsided me because  I never thought of myself as gay. Um, when I was a kid, gay was Liberace or Elton John. And, um, I don't feel like what I see kind of projected at me. But then I had this other thing of where I was attracted to men. Now as a 20 something, I'm like, oh, that means gay. I think I know what that means, or bi. And so I started to explore that. 

Julia Winston: At first, the way he explored was online. This was in the 90s, and American Online, otherwise known as AOL was brand new. 

One of the features of AOL was chatrooms - where me and my teenage friends were pretending to be porn stars while in real life were actually eating the peanut butter and jelly sandwiches our moms had cut the crusts off of.

But Tony, because he was an adult, was participating in chat rooms as himself.

Tony: And there were all these rooms for M4M San Francisco, M4M LA, M4M this. I was like, member to member? Like, what is this? And I would drop into these rooms, and I was like, oh my gosh!  These are gay people, like, chatting up in these rooms, like, what?  This is so crazy, like, what?

Julia: gay people! 

Tony: They're gay people, and they're organized, and I found myself,  Enraptured, engaged, deep in the wormhole of these conversations with these people. And, but I'm not gay, I'm just like, captivated. Um, and I ended up in, with this one person, Norman, having months long conversations. Hours a day, you know, hundred dollars, hundreds of dollars a month of bills because of these online chats. Um, that eventually led to You know what, we should actually just meet up, because I think there's nothing here, it's no big deal, this is just some weird obsession, let's just like, meet, realize there's nothing here for me, like, I'm, I'm not gay, and we can just put this one to bed and move on. 

We meet up,  and fireworks explode, and quite the opposite happens, and when you meet someone like that from the inside out, like, we were, there was, like, the physical attraction was built on this emotional, kind of intellectual, rich depth, inside out kind of connection that, you know, he could have been anybody and of course fireworks would have happened. 

Julia: So fireworks are exploding with Norman, but what does this mean for Mimi?

Tony: it led to a couple months of me trying to figure out how to navigate this or what to do and eventually  came out to Mimi, my girlfriend. And.  In all of it's mess and confusion and uncertainty of what it meant of  how to step forward. And she was willing and able to walk with me for months at first.

It was hard to be authentic to what I was discovering and to be in a relationship with her. It just felt like I was just crushing her. And she was willing to stand there for me, for herself, but eventually it became a, I need space to just  get messy and figure this out on my own and to walk my path.  And, um,  and I love you to pieces and I need to do this for myself.  It was heartbreaking. 

You know that phrase when you feel like your heart's getting ripped out?  Um,  not until that moment did I ever know what that really felt like. Like it literally felt like  I was just, my heart, I loved her so much. And to just have that like, but it can't be right now and just to rip it out. I just, I could feel the pain in my chest of how hard, um,  This decision was for me, and how necessary it was at the same time. We stayed apart for, didn't communicate for maybe a year or maybe even two years before we could kind of come back together and, you know, find a new way to kind of engage.

That led to me going on a real long, deep journey. Heart  blasting open, mind blasting open, journey of,  you know, literally the white picket fence view was just kind of obliterated and Wizard of Oz style, just tornado ripping it apart. And here I am. What am I left with?  The whole future is ripped to shreds. I have no idea what's coming next. Um, and that vision of not only the white picket fence goes away, the wife goes away, the kids go away. There's that, that whole future is just, um, gone  

Julia Winston: Tony and Norman dated for a year. While it was a very important relationship for him, eventually it ran its course. Once he was single again, Tony was figuring out how to date and pursue people as a gay man. 

Tony: I'm in my 30s now dating. But this is still new to me, so I still have kind of a teenager y view of things. Like, it's very kind of, um, shallow. You know, it's very like, ooh, you're fun, and you're attractive, and like, whee! And, but I'm a 30 year old acting like a 17 year old, you know? It's like it's, or a 14 year old, you know? It's just, it, I wasn't sorting for a partner to co parent with at that point.  In my 40s I did start moving out of that phase and like who could I really be with and who could I spend my life with and who might want to have kids. And I found it really challenging. I felt like there was a lot of people that I would meet that would talk a good talk.  Oh, I love kids. I've always wanted kids. And then, meanwhile, you look at their actions, and you're like, that doesn't really seem consistent with, like, what a parent in my mind looks like. And so, I would get judgy about it, of like, you seem like a high risk, like, I don't know what you would be like as a parent, because everything you, not everything you do, but a lot of your behaviors and your habits seem to be not around settling down and home oriented. Um, and so, I started to kind of lose  faith that I could find somebody that was both gay and wanting to settle down and have a family. I thought I was really  not the only one, but it was like slim pickins and  at the rate I'm going, it does not feel like I'm going to find somebody that's going to do this with me.

Julia Winston: The searching and yearning Tony experienced as he got older really hits home for me. Each passing year that I’m single, I get to know myself better and I feel clearer and clearer about who I am and what I want. But as I expand and grow, the pool of possible partners seems to shrink. 

This was Tony’s frustration in dating as well. 

But after a decade of dating and not finding a partner who wanted kids, something started to shift as he watched his friends have kids. 

Tony: Having folks ahead of me, That were starting nontraditional families really moved the needle. Specifically there are two gay men that I know that were single gay men that had Children of their own  and seeing them. And even though we weren't close, just the fact that I had contact with them and I could see them and I could go to dinner once every four or five months like it was like, Oh, this is how this works. That's like a possibility I can see.  

And then also my friend Thursday. That's her name. Thursday was a single mom and adopted a kid and she allowed me to kind of take care of her son, uh, for days on end at times where I developed this. Not only do I want kids, but I can do this. Like, not only is she trusting me with her child, like, I'm actually doing the things, like, I'm, like, being a dad right now, like, I can do this, and those little gifts of responsibility were, man, she's like, thank you for babysitting my child so I can go to work, and I'm like, no, thank you, because you've given me an embodied experience to know, to give me increased confidence that I got this, I can do this too. 

Julia Winston: So he was seeing single parents raising kids on their own, and loving it. And at the same time, he was hearing from married friends that having a partner isn’t always better.

Tony: There were those whisperings of these couples that I just love from the outside. They seem these, these great straight couples. And meanwhile, when you have, you know, conversations over, you know, kitchen, side by side, when with one of them, I can specifically think of one woman who would say, you know,  when my husband's away on business.  It kind of runs pretty nicely here. Like I kind of like the temporary single parent thing where it's just things are a lot smoother. We get to, you know, and there was this like, like I love my husband. Absolutely. Do we love being together? Yes. But there was also this side of, it's actually awesome and different being a single parent when, and I was like, that opened a door for me of, oh, like what if it was like that all the time? And then,   that could actually be pretty great.

Um, and that led me to a realization at some point that there was a possibility that I could actually have kids on my own and that would be enough. So there was a sense of. You know, I'd have to make up, if I didn't have a wife, I had a partner, I was a gay man raising kids in a partnership, okay, that's not as great, but, uh, you know, we can compensate and make it happen.  There was a shift at some point, and I don't even, can't even put the pieces exactly together, but there was a sense of. Oh my gosh, as long as there's love, I have so much love to give. I have so much to provide. I have so much like wanting to bring to the world in, in, in terms of starting a family. Um, I was like, I can do this on my own. Like I really saw this future of this is totally different, way off road now and.  , this is different and awesome, like this will be great.

Julia Winston: When we come back, Tony tries to have a baby. 

Julia Winston: When Tony was 41, he was finally ready to be a dad. For him, the first step was restructuring his life a little bit, to make space for kids.

Tony: I moved to Lake Tahoe on my own saying I'm no longer trying to meet anybody, so let me get myself outta San Francisco where dating and shiny things are everywhere. I'm doing this on my own, let me prioritize that.  move up into the mountains on my own, get a house with extra bedrooms so that I'm building and manifesting this future. So, and, and it started to feel natural.

So at first, I was thinking of adoption, um, for various reasons.  One of the reasons that took me out of adoption is that the narrative I was getting was that in terms of pecking order, single gay dad is not on the top of the pile.  And so I was like, wow, this is gonna be a challenge. And um, you know, I just had the story of, oh my gosh, this is gonna just take years and years and years. 

Thankfully, and just how pieces fell into place, um,  uh, professionally, uh, came into some money. We sold a portion of our company. I had more money than I had had in the past. And the opportunity to, to pursue surrogacy was available.

Julia Winston: And what do you need to have a baby via egg donation and surrogacy? A lot of money. The cost ranges depending on the surrogate and their location, plus the cost of drugs, clinic visits, hospital stays, travel expenses and agency and legal fees. Sometimes intended parents even pay for the surrogate’s groceries. 

Most people end up spending between 100 and 175 thousand dollars for one pregnancy.

Once he knew he could afford it, Tony set out to find the right egg donor and surrogate.

Tony: I found an agency to have to find an egg donor and an agency to find a surrogate. So those are two separate agencies.  Um, and with the egg donor, it was a lot about  Finding someone, and I was coached to this for some reason, and I probably still like that I was coached this way, is to find someone who kind of looks like you. You know, if they're, if they look really different, you're going to constantly be asked questions about your wife, of why is her, what's her ethnicity, and why is she, you know, why is your kid a mixture of things.

So the more that the egg donor looks like you, the less questions there are going to be, and it just makes it easier.  Seemed reasonable to me. So, um, so there was someone, I was looking for someone like me and it was like, like online dating, like swiping. You're literally looking at a picture book with pictures and like basic stats. 

Julia: Truly, just like Tinder.

Tony: I remember sending something to my sister like,  Oh my gosh, it's so weird that the surrogates have this weird selection bias that they're all kind of short. They're all like five, four or five, five.  My sister was like, Dude, that's the average height of women, just for the record. I had no idea! I was like, they're all really short!  Um, and then it came down to meeting a few and finding chemistry. And meanwhile, I'm in conversations with another agency to find a surrogate.

Julia: And they found him one.

Tony: I remember as I drove up to the restaurant to meet her, I thought, man, if this at all feels transactional, I'm out of here. If this feels extractive, like here's my money, I want you to do this for me. Like, like any kind of back alley kind of feeling to this, I'm like, dude, this is not, I'm not into it. And I got quite the opposite connection with her. She's a mom of her own son. She  Was like, I love giving life and bringing  the experience of bringing my son in the world was amazing. And she's like, you know, those people on TV that you have way too many kids and you know, they really can't support all those kids. And you're like, what are you doing? She's like, I get that. Like I have that feeling, but I have this responsibility filter on of like, don't do that because you can't support them. So, um, and so she, When she came into being of like, oh, there's a thing called surrogacy where you can help others start their family. She was like, Whoa, sign me up. I could do this. 

Julia Winston: Tony leaves that lunch knowing this is the woman who will be his surrogate. 

So now he has an egg donor and a surrogate, and it’s time to start the IVF process. Tony has the easiest job. He gives a sample, and he’s done. But the women had a much more intense process. 

Tony: The egg donor in the surrogates have to take repeated drugs, injectable drugs, over a several week period of time to get them on cycle with each other. So they're trying to get the two of them on cycle so they are ovulating at the right time. And they're painful injections. They're self administered day after day for weeks to get into it. This is a non trivial thing.  Um, and then when the doctor deems like the hormone levels are all right and everyone's ready,  the egg donor goes into the office and they do a collection of, of the eggs and she was not under, she was kind of given some drugs to be, um, to reduce the pain a little bit, but it was, it's a painful and uncomfortable experience for her.

They extract the eggs, they fertilize the eggs and they put them and in a petri dish, essentially for days watching how they grow.  And as they grow, the IVF clinic decides this one looks good. This one growing in a way that I just qualitatively think is a good egg. And they pick that, the surrogate will come in,  they implant, um, the egg.  into, uh, the surrogate at that moment. And I'm sitting by her side and that's like,  in the world of IVF, that's like, Oh my God,  like she's pregnant.  Um, and so it was an emotional moment and it's like, there it is. The egg goes in, it comes in the lining, gets sucked in and And for the next,  I think, 10 days, you're kind of holding your breath, um, to see how it's all going to go with hormone levels and tests and see if it's being rejected or accepted. 

The first ones didn't take, you know, and when it doesn't take, you start all over again, and here we go, um, from scratch. Uh, and this was This happened several times. I'm not going to walk you through all the gory details, but there were multiple cycles involved.

I thought it was going to be, um, linear, like very straightforward. You find an agency and you pay some money and make it all happen and it all kind of unfolds  according to plan, and it can often be very bumpy. 

Julia Winston: Like many people who do IVF, it doesn't happen the first time. This was the case for me and my egg daddies too. We only had three embryos, and the first two didn’t result in a viable pregnancy. Thankfully the third one stuck, but it took us a full year to get there. 

Tony’s process took two years, but finally his surrogate gets pregnant. And Tony is in full on supportive partner mode:

Tony: I  go to all the pregnancy, all the OB appointments with her.  They would keep forgetting like, oh, yeah, you're not married. Are you and yeah, we're not married and you know. Sometimes we were kind of a little sheepish about her being a surrogate, uh, that wasn't kind of like waved on a flag. Um,  I can't remember exactly how we fully navigated that, but it was, it was somewhat elusive. And I always kind of left her to decide how she wanted to present  the situation, because I was in her town where this was happening. So, it was her world to kind of, her cards to play.  very supportive. Her parents are very supportive of this process.

Her son was like right in there with it. It was just beautiful. And she just got, you know, more and more pregnant. 

Julia: Were you ever, um, worried or feel concerned that there would be some level of attachment between the donor or the surrogate and the, the kids that you would have to deal with later?

Tony: I was concerned  mostly on the surrogate side thinking, she's been with this child for nine months, that there would be a real heart attachment. I, I was concerned on that point. And, you know, you can say stories all day long, but you've never done this before. So how do you know? You know, I, it's hard to trust her, what she says, you know? And so there is a leap of faith. Um, she was clear at some point in the process where she said, had it been her  own egg, it absolutely she would feel attached, but because it was someone else's egg, she felt very clear the whole time that this is for the sake of another. This isn't my child. This is something I'm doing for the sake, for someone else. So that never got mixed with her is the way she explained it to me.  

Julia: that's, uh, that resonates actually. I, as an egg donor who's not carry.  . I don't feel concerned about getting attached because I'm not growing a baby in my body. Yeah. But if I was, if I was, I, I don't, I would, I would say no if I was asked to carry a child, because I do think that that would be a different experience. Mm-hmm. , so I understand what she meant by that. Yeah. 

Tony: Early on before this ever happened. I had been asked to be a sperm donor for various women, and I did say no because I was afraid of attachment. And now the answer is, um, a wholehearted yes if I were to be asked again.  

Julia Winston: As the due date of his first child approached, Tony moved to the surrogate's town. For three weeks he and a friend posted up at a hotel, waiting for the baby to come and brainstorming names. Finally, the surrogate was induced. 

Tony: I was there in the room for the delivery,  um, mom, her mom was in the room  and  she was just such a trooper, such a champ. You see, um, women giving birth as a man, uh, in movies all the time and it's so theatrical  and  To be living, this is, this is the real deal. This is, um,  her really going through the pain and bringing this child into the world and  it was so rich with emotion and passion and, um, and out  came my child and then the, he, the doctor picks up  my child backwards and  Both of us were convinced that she was going to be a girl, but when he held up my child backwards, you could see these two kind of massive ball sacks hanging down. And we're like, Oh, I can't believe it. It's a boy. I, we totally had it wrong. And he's like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. And he turns her around and it turns out it's just her labia were just so swollen it looked like testicles from behind. We're like, it is a girl. Ah, there's like,  you're killing us. 

Julia: Okay, here’s where I insert a very heartfelt apology to Tony’s daughter. I love this story, AND I would hate it if my own dad was telling it. But anyway, it’s a girl! And tony is like…

Tony: oh my gosh,  get over here. Cut the umbilical cord.  Cut the umbilical cord and, and just  took my shirt off and just had my daughter just laying on my chest and just that skin to skin, skin to skin connection was just,  you know, and they were like, Oh, let us clean her up. And I'm like, are you kidding me? You can't take this child off my chest  now. I'm like, I'm just like,  you can just feel this like attachment, just this like her getting folded into my chest. It was just an amazing  connection that was just like, oh,  it was just, I can still feel what that felt like  to have her laying there.

And I remember just turning my head looking at the surrogate, just repeatedly just going Thank you.  Thank you.  It was, um, it was  unbelievable, uh, to be in that space to like, oh my God, like this actually is happening. I, I was.  Overwhelmed. Um,  and uh,  it was beautiful. That moment lasted.  It felt like forever. both of us were just  in tears that like,  my gosh, we like got here. Like, I can't believe in all the twists and turns were so many reasons to punch out and give up.  We arrived at this point.

Julia Winston: Tony’s dream has finally come true, he’s a father.

He hangs out at the hospital for a few days, learning how to care for a newborn, and then he heads back to Lake Tahoe with a new child in tow. 

Tony: So I was totally immersed in my own world of like, oh, new dad and all these pieces and poop and food and formula and this and that. So she pumped a little bit. So we have that. But, oh no,  the surrogate's milk is out now. So  when is she going to get more milk to me, and we have freezers and the whole system lined up, and I check in with her and she, no response, and eventually I get in contact with her mom, and her mom tells me the story that she's back in the hospital, um, she's like on IV antibiotics, and she bled so much and got an infection from the pregnancy, that um, she's got a blood infection called sepsis. 

Julia: Maternal sepsis is rare, but it’s also the second leading cause of pregnancy-related deaths. So Tony’s surrogate was suddenly facing a potentially fatal complication.

Tony: And it's touch and go. I'm like,  uh, I can't even like wrestle how to deal with this. Like it's far away. I'm in this like new dad, emotion, wrestle, love  everything, like love all the emotions. And wow. And this, like, she's like fighting for her life, you know, two hours away from me. Um, and it was, uh, There was really nothing for me to do, um, and so I just kind of just checked in on the regular to see how she was doing and she came out okay. On the other side was weak for a little while. 

And the most amazing thing happened  to three months later, one of our check ins that, you know, we're constantly sending photos and I'm telling her stories of what's going on with my daughter  and she goes, yeah, like, let's talk about number two.  And I'm like, what are you talking about, girl?

She's like, you know, you wanted more than one kid. Um, I'm up for having a second.  I'm like, are you delirious? Like, have you thought about this? Like, do you, like, do you remember what just happened two months ago? And she goes, yeah, I'm really. I'm up for it. It won't happen again. We know what to look for. It'll be better. Um, and I really want to do this.  And I was like, if you're in, I'm in, let's go. And so the started yet another process to have number two.

Julia Winston: There were some embryos leftover from the first pregnancy, so Tony and the surrogate go through another few rounds of implantation. But nothing sticks. After a few cycles, he goes back to the egg donor to see if she would do another retrieval. 

Tony: And she's like, I've been waiting for you to ask me for my eggs. You know, I wanted to give it. I didn't want to be forthright and say, yes, I will. But I've been waiting for you to ask. And I was like, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. So, so she did another egg retrieval.

Julia Winston: Another round of sticking herself with needles, being hormonal, and a painful extraction. But these new eggs do eventually lead to a pregnancy for the surrogate. This time, a son. With an actual ball sack to prove it. 

Tony: And how did the second pregnancy feel, especially with the knowledge that the surrogate got so sick after the first birth. 

Tony: Yeah, there was more kid gloves going on. I was listening more intently during, um, checkups with the O. B. I was much more like making sure the doctors and Uh, you know, nearby and nurse knows what's going on and it's really paying attention.

I just had a higher degree of, um, attendance and with all that,  when my son was ready to come,  the doctor was not in the hospital, he was at his office like 10 minutes away. My son's popping out all by himself. I'm telling the nurse, like, huh, can you get in here? She's like, yeah, just in a minute. I'm like, no, his head is like about to land on the table. She's like, oh my gosh. And so nurse played doctor. I played nurse. And suddenly we're delivering a child without a doctor. And I'm like, did you not get the memo that we're worried about this pregnancy? Um, and so he just came out like that. He just like got shot out black and blue head, you know, face. It was a very aggressive quick, uh, delivery. 

Julia: This time, there are no health complications. The surrogate is healthy, Tony's son is healthy. And finally, his family is complete.

Julia Winston: Tony's kids are now 8 and 10 years old. They all still live in Lake Tahoe, and have the kind of busy life you'd expect a family with two kids and a working parent to have. 

Julia: Tell me a little more about your your sort of day to day life. Yeah, where do you get support and help and what does the flow look like? 

Tony: Yeah.  Once I had a second child, I got an au pair. An au pair is a  A person from a foreign country that comes on a special visa, a J 1 visa. They come here for a cultural exchange for one to two years. They live with you. They can only do child care related things. And once I got two kids, I was like, man, I cannot do this on my own with a babysitter here and there.

When I travel, finding care on the road, it was just, it was, it was too much.  And then it turned into Wow, here's a female presence in my life that is absent in the house and my daughter gets this like female Guidance and energy and, you know, essentially a surrogate parent and she gets a revolving door of different parents, different styles and, and for every age, I felt like I picked a different au pair.

I'm on my seventh au pair. Now, each one of them had their own style, their own personality, and I invited that into the house, um, and encourage them to bring their own,  you know, whatever it was like, bring that into the house and, uh, yeah. You know, every morning during the week, the school week, they're up often before my au pairs up often before me starting to prep lunches for kids at school and breakfast  They help out with you know, doing the laundry and getting Things organized.

Julia Winston: The au pair is a necessary second set of hands for Tony. But when it comes to parenting and making decisions, he's still on his own. Which most of the time, he likes. 

Tony: There isn't a whole lot of, well, what do you think is best? I don't wanna do this. There isn't a discussion, um, kind of going on with two parents around. It's like, we wanna travel through Europe this summer. Uh, you know, three nights every place somewhere we will backpack through Europe. We're just doing it. My kids just kind of follow along and we just, you know, we're the merry, uh, campers.

The hard parts of being a single parent is  when this, when you're  not really sure. When you find yourself second guessing and approach and you'd love a qualified invested  second opinion. Um, you can get those from other people, but no one knows your child, like  a parent. And so I feel,  um, out on a limb sometimes with some of my decisions. I worry that I'm making  Not a wrong decision, but a less than savory decision about, and it can be as small as like corrective behavior or, you know, school choices or parenting styles. Like I just, there isn't anyone really checking my work  and, and that's fine at times until it's not, and I would get insecure about something and I'm not so sure about something like I worry about the teenage years.

I imagine the teen years can be frothy and confusing. Man, a second pair would be so nice to have in those moments, I'm sure.

I more often think than I think most parents.  You know, I'm one bus hit away from those car kids being alone. Um, so I'm the last man standing and um,  it scares me sometimes. It influences the activities I do,  the way I engage with those activities. It's real. Um, I think about  my  health, my, you know, how I could be gone at any moment and what that scenario looks like way more active than people with two parents. Um, that's top of mind, probably compounded by the fact I'm older.  

An imagined challenge that is kind of funny given, uh, to me by a friend is that, you know, as a child of single parents, they never see the arguments. They never see the discussions. And this single parent would actually role play with me.   a crisis, or not crisis, but distress. So she would actively engage with a, a discussion, a debate with me in front of her child so that her child could see how that, how that mechanism works, um, . And so I was like, oh, that's kinda interesting. Like  that's important to model and, and show your kids. So I think there's challenges of, oh, there's certain things your kid doesn't see.

Julia: we have such deep programming of the shoulds and supposed tos. Mm-hmm. , like, you should have a partner, you're supposed to be married before you have kids. All this stuff. Was that with you at any point at this or at this by this point? Was that stuff still with you on some level or had you completely shed the shoulds and the supposed tos?

Tony: In all honesty, I think it never leaves. I think it's always there in some degree. Um, and it, uh,   and, uh, yeah, it rears its head every once in a while,  way less strong. But the shoulds and the, and the, you know,  what's supposed to happen, um, it's just been baked in so hard. It's baked in by the media. It's baked in what you see your friends having. And so it's, it's always  there a little bit. And it surprises me sometimes.   and the other side, I'll say it's sometimes it surprises me of how amazing it is to be a single dad rocking it and loving like, we're doing this  like, it's like,  like giddy. I like pinch myself. And so, so it's, I'm not trying to be like doom and gloomy, but it, to be honest, um,  it's always there and, and decreasing, uh, volume.

Julia Winston: When Tony came out his entire perspective about starting a family was turned on its head. He spent the next 20 years slowly creating his own definition of family. 

Often, that looked like venturing into the unknown. He chose to walk away from Mimi and the white picket fence, because he knew he needed something else, even though he didn't know what that would look like. He spent six figures and two years trying to conceive his first kid, never knowing if the science would work out in his favor.  

And after he became a single dad, he was once again faced with another unknown in his refamulating journey: the very thing it took him so long to write off - sharing it all with a partner.

Tony: I set off on this path to do this on my own. During this path,  I met a person who lives in Florida.  And I started casually dating them, you know, not that we were even like dating. It was just like, you know, I'm being a parent, I'm doing this on my own. And, you know, let's like, have some fun weekends here and there, you know?  He had no aspirations of being a parent ever and not now. When my daughter was born, something got ignited in him. And in us of this possibility that, oh wow, maybe  I could be around kids. Maybe I could spend more of my time around Tony and a child.

His friends were like, you need to run. Like, you should run now. Like, if this guy wants kids, it's gonna be all about the kids and you're never gonna be seen. And they had all kinds of stories of why he should run. But he didn't. And when my daughter was born, he just fell in love. You could just see the sensitivity and the  Just the care, the deep care he just developed instantaneously.

He's a big hearted guy. Um, and so the  visits from Florida increased over time. I didn't consider myself really dating him, but I was like, I'm just busy being dad, you know, and I'm, and now here comes a second one. And I'm just like, I'm just doing my family stuff and he would kind of show up at times. 

And it kind of started to escalate over time. Like, he would show up more and more. Um, and I started to fall more and more in love with him. Watching him, like, love on these kids more and more. So, five years ago, he moved in. Um, and  he's here full time now with  me and the kids. And  While I don't consider him a parent, he is absolutely like a loving adult in the house and, and does a lot of care and help with the kids, but not quite like a parent. Like, he's not all the way in there. Um,  and. It's beautiful. It's like non traditional and kind of quirky and sometimes hard to explain, like, No, he's not their dad, but he's my partner, and yeah, we live together. Like, just,  that's, you know, every year at school there's like this explanation of who he is and how we are. Um, but it seems to work, and there isn't an insufficiency.  Other people look in like, you should be getting married, and you should do this, and blah blah blah, and he needs to be in that photo.  And honestly, it kind of works for us, and everyone's happy. 

Julia: This is refamulating. 

Tony: Absolutely. 

Julia Winston: It's been nearly a decade since Tony teamed up with the egg donor and surrogate. But the time he spent with these women, the sacrifices they made, and the gifts they gave him, are honored everyday in his family’s home. 

Tony: Because  I'm a single dad. I describe it as having an empty chair at the table. There's clearly no mom present. And so I am happy, I love filling that with these two,  they're the heroes of the story. Like nothing happens without them and. Um, to memorialize that, to really like ground that in the house. Um, I commissioned a piece of art when my daughter was born, uh, by an artist I really liked to, to essentially paint our family story and our, you know, how this came to be.  

this painting is probably six, seven feet wide. It sits on our mantel over our fireplace in the living room, and it's massive. And the surrogate and the egg donor are on the ends, the left and right, and they are all the way front and cen not center, but they're all the way pulled to the front. They're, they're the showcase of the piece, and it's all about them, and, and Asp, and really bringing out parts of their character. You know, the artist worked from photographs to really Capture them. 

And me and the kids are kind of set back in the center because we're a result of, of their amazing gifts and their love. Um,  and  in that picture, there are symbols all over my parents, my dad's as a sailboat, my mom as a butterfly,  a backdrop of Lake Tahoe where we live now. And it sits there as a reminder on a daily basis of the gift  that these two women provided for us that is,  um, so deep.  Um,  so meaningful  and I feel it so deeply because I feel like I'm a person who always tries to provide that in the world. And to get this monumental gift from these two twice over, um, it's just overwhelming. It's so beautiful.

Julia Winston: Tony always pictured a family portrait hanging on his mantel, he just never knew what it would look like. In his early years, it featured a wife and a white picket fence. And then for many years it was painfully blank. 

The painting that hangs in his living room now tells a beautifully original story of a family with love and teamwork at the center. 

And though he didn’t paint this portrait himself, Tony was always the one holding the paintbrush. 

The family he created may not be what he envisioned, yet it’s everything he ever wanted.

00: Becoming Fairy Godmother: Egg donation and creating a new kind of family

Two years ago Julia Winston was asked to help a gay couple start a family by donating her eggs. At the time, she was 38, single, and had no idea if she’d start her own family. Sometimes that made her feel insecure, so the opportunity to donate her eggs allowed her to help create a family, just not the one she imagined in her head. Since the donation, she’s gone through an emotional transformation that opened her eyes to all the different ways a family can look. 

This episode originally aired on Terrible Thanks for Asking, hosted by Nora McInerny.

Episode transcript is below. Transcripts may not appear in their final form.

__

Nora McInerny: What does family mean to you? 

Each of us will answer that question a little differently- maybe you consider the people you live in the same home with as your family. Maybe you widen that circle and include aunts, uncles, grandparents and cousins. Maybe family are the friends you've chosen who have stood by you through everything, when the people you share blood with didn't. 

When I was growing up, my family was a massive Irish Catholic conglomerate spanning the upper midwest. I have – and this is not exaggeration – FIFTY FIRST COUSINS! And so many other forms of cousins that if you share even one strand of DNA with me, or if you grew up alongside me, I was told you were my cousin or my uncle or my aunt.

Family to me was always expansive, but I still assumed as a kid that my own family would be pretty nuclear. I’d marry a man. We’d have kids. Those kids would be cousins with my siblings’ kids. We’d become grandparents, and then we’d die and maybe someone would name a kid after us someday? 

And I was kind of right and also kind of wrong.

I was married, he died. I was a single mom for a little bit. Then I blended families with my current husband, his kids, my kid and a surprise new baby. My first husband’s mother is a grandmother to all of these kids. Both my mothers in law have lunch together and don’t invite me!! Our kids don’t say step or half sibling, they just say sibling. Because our oldest was born when I was 18 but I didn’t meet him until he was 14…my husband calls me a “late in life teen mom.” 

And all of my kids mostly call me Nora, which is very funny to me. 

But you can only have a blended family when two other families disintegrate, and ¾ of our kids know what it’s like to have a family they loved…and a family they love now. 

Our family is more expansive that I thought it ever would be, and even though meeting new people often means a five-minute rundown of the backstory with time for Q&A…our family is unique in the fact that it’s not unique at all. 

A third of adults, ages 25 to 50, live with a spouse and kids. A generation ago that number used to be 70 percent. 

Family is changing. People are staying single longer, having children has become a choice for many people, not a thing they feel they have to do. And queer people have more opportunities to have kids using science and outside help. 

All of this freedom to do something different means that many of us are asking ourselves the question I asked at the beginning: 

what does family look like for you? 

Exactly two years ago, on April 2, 2022, Julia Winston logged onto a Zoom call with a psychologist. Julia was sitting at the kitchen table at her home in Austin, TX. The psychologist was in her office in a different state. They'd never met before, and Julia was talking to this specific psychologist because she was trying to figure out what family would look like for her.

Therapist: How do you picture this? Like, you know, what role do you think you would have? 

Julia: Well, we talked about that and we came up with a role. We came up with a title, which is the Fairy Godmother. 

Therapist: Yeah. Only thing is, I don't know if you have magic. 

Julia:  Oh, I have magic. 

Therapist: You do? Because that's very helpful for children.

Julia: I've got magic. I love that, yeah. 

Nora: Three months before this session, two male friends of Julia's reached out and asked her a favor. They wanted to start a family and they were looking for an egg donor. they asked Julia and....she said yes. She would be their fairy godmother. 

The technical term for her role is “known egg donor”. Julia’s friends – who she calls The Egg Daddies – want to use her eggs and their sperm to make embryos via In Vitro Fertilization. The embryos will be implanted into a surrogate, a woman who has agreed to carry the children she has no genetic tie to. This sounds so strange and technical, I know. The Egg Daddies don’t want Julia to be a mom, but they do want Julia to know their children, to be available for questions and to just be another adult who loves them. 

It’s not a relationship we really have a term for. We have aunts. Uncles. Cousins. But an adult who gave their DNA to make sure you could be born? That doesn't parent you? Fairy Godmother was the term that felt right. 

At the time, Julia was 37. She was single and didn't have children of her own. She'd frozen some eggs a few years prior, in case she did want to get pregnant one day, but her own desires for a family were still a little fuzzy. She could give these men a huge gift…and… be part of a family, without carrying the baby or filling a parental role.

Julia: I love the idea of, of having an extended wacky family. I mean, I just think to me, that's a very comfortable, uh, place. And, um, I mean, I felt a lot of joy when I was considering this, doing this, because that was actually one thing I imagined. And I just laughed so much because I was like, wow, I've gone from worrying that maybe I'll never have any kids to like, what if I have like a bunch of kids, like what if Aaron and Dan have multiple kids from my eggs and then I have kids, I mean, that would just be incredible and that my body wouldn't even have to go through you know, all the things to have multiple kids. So that possibility is actually very exciting to me. Not that it wouldn't have complications as every family does, but I fully trust that I would be able to meet any complications that came up. 

Nora: Saying yes to the egg daddies was easy for Julia. Two years before they reached out, she  went through a big break up in her mid 30s. The man she thought she would marry and have kids with wasn’t in her life anymore…and as she mourned the loss of that relationship, she also mourned the loss of the story she’d always told herself: that she’d get married and have kids before she turned 40. 

Then, the pandemic started, as Julia sat alone in her house she thought a lot about that story. She realized for her, kids weren't a priority, finding the right partner was. So when the egg daddies reached out in early 2022, she saw a new story being presented, and she loved her role in it.

But this process is not as simple as just saying yes, you may have my eggs.

That yes kicks off a medical process that begins with meeting with this psychologist, whose job is to evaluate Julia to see if Julia is psychologically prepared to donate her eggs to these men. Because donating eggs will make the Egg Daddies into parents. But not Julia. 

Julia: I would love to be a person who can be deeply caring for the child and to develop a relationship with a child and be able to provide answers about where do you come from? Why are you the way that you are? To be a safe space for them to go. I think that I could actually play that role better if I wasn't, you know, directly parenting them. And I think that's a really special, that to me, if I had a presence like that in my life, wow. Actually I did. My dad's, my dad's love of his life, my dad's partner really became that for me. And I know what it's, I know how to be that. Like I know how to play that role because I received it and I was so lucky. 

Nora McInerny:  The love of Julia’s dad's life was named Mitchell. And today on Terrible, Thanks For Asking, Julia tells us what it took to become the Fairy Godmother she is today. 

Julia grew up in what she considered a nuclear household in the 80s and 90s in Austin, Texas. A mom. A dad. A little sister, Molly, who is four years younger than her.

Julia: And I remember at age seven, just being really confused about what was going on and feeling the intense emotions in my household.

Like, I remember my mom crying in her room alone and my dad laying on the couch downstairs facing away from us. Like, in my memory, He's laying on the couch with his back facing towards our bedrooms and the rest of the house. And I just remember kind of going from my mom's room downstairs to where my dad was laying on the couch, just understanding that something big was happening and that change was coming, but I didn't really know what it meant.

And my mom said, your dad and I are getting... a divorce. And I think I asked why, like, what does it mean? And she said, ask your father. And so I went and asked him and I don't remember what they said. I was so young, but I just remember the visual of her crying alone in her room and him turned away from us on the couch.And of me somewhere in the middle, feeling like. What's happening? And I also remember them both telling me very clearly that they loved me and that I didn't do anything wrong.

Nora: Julia’s parents split custody. Her mom stayed in their house, and Julia and her sister went back and forth from their mom’s house to their dad’s apartment.

Julia: every other weekend and every Wednesday we would go hang with my dad at his apartment. Um, And I hated his apartment because I just wanted him to be back at home. And he was in this little dinky apartment with like, popcorn ceiling apartment and um, my sister and I shared a room, which I obviously hated. And I just remember, you know, there being a lot of just discomfort. like learning how to pack and like trying to make decisions about like what do you take, what do you keep, having pets at both houses.

And it went on like this for a few years. I just remember having this, this feeling that whole time. Like there was something I didn't know. There was some lurking truth and I felt it swirling around me. But I just didn't know what it was, but something fell off to me and at the time I did not totally equate that feeling of something being off with the fact that my dad was hanging out a lot with this guy who looked like a Ken doll. I was like, who is this dude?

We had like a dinky little like speed boat, fishing boat on the lake and we would go to the lake on the weekends. And my dad, you know, brought friends and there was always this guy named Mitchell who had blue eyes and blonde hair. And he has this like. Really fun, like chuckle. And he was just like tanning gorgeous. And like my dad seemed to just hang out with him a lot and I, but I didn't know who he was. And I was like, why are you here And so I thought it was kind of weird. And then my dad, um. I, at some point he moved into a new house.  There were four bedrooms upstairs and he had a room, Mitchell moved in with him. And then my sister and I had our rooms. And again, I was like, why is this guy here all the time? Like why does he live with us? And so this was happening. It was just like part of my everyday life was just like my dad and his roommate. And like, this was totally a trend in the 90s of, uh, you know, when, when there weren't a lot of resources at that time, like books and, and other types of resources for parents to have the talk with their kids about like dad is gay.I don't I don't know how it became like 100 percent clear to me, but it was like, uh, It's almost like at the end of it You know like the usual suspects when like suddenly you look back and all of the pieces came together like it's Kaiser Susie Like ah, my dad is gay! It's Mitchell!

Nora McInerny:  Aha! Julia's parents got divorced because her dad is gay. Mitchell isn’t just a handsome Ken doll who loves to chuckle. He’s her Dad's BOYFRIEND! 

Julia: We didn't really like each other. I was like, really aggravated by this person's presence. Cause I just, for, for those years, I, I just was like, who are you? Like, why are you here all the time? I don't care if you're handsome, get away. Like, I don't get it. And he had this like very sparkly, twinkly personality, but like it kind of annoyed me because, um, he was just always giggling, you know, I was like, why are you laughing at?

Like, it's just like, why are you laughing? And I think that, like, we kind of had like a little bit of a nemesis relationship for a while. Because I was very messy and I, I was a very messy kid and Mitchell was a very clean man. And I would like drop my towels on the ground and like leave cups everywhere, which I still do.

And I don't drop my towel anymore, but I definitely leave glasses all over the house, which Mitchell would fucking hate. But I just like left my stuff everywhere. I think that, like, maybe when the nemesis relationship began, it was when I felt judged by Mitchell. Like, he would glare at me, and then I would feel, like, really defensive, and he'd say something, like, Pick up your towel and I was kind of sitting there like who the hell are you to tell me to pick up my towel? This is my dad's house. Get out. You know, I was like it was a it was a power struggle between us.

Nora McInerny: It’s not just a power struggle. It’s the 90s, and like Julia mentioned earlier, we weren't really talking about how to be in a blended family, and in 90s Texas we definitely weren’t talking much about a blended family where dad has a boyfriend. 

Which means Julia’s dad and mom weren't really communicating with their kids about Mitchell's role in the family. 

Julia: Whenever there was like a function where my family came that Mitchell and my dad came together And that was when I understood that they were a couple or that was when I started perceiving them to be a couple It was probably my bat mitzvah Like there was a big event and in my you know in my life and my family really rallied together and in family photos It was my dad and Mitchell. 

when we started going on family vacations together, um, which we did from a very young age, like every year we would go to Mexico together or Hawaii or, you know, some kind of vacation and they would, yeah, they, they, we would always go together and it was my dad and Mitchell were like the, you know, the parent, parental figures. he was there and, um, and he felt part of the family. 

In middle school, I just, yeah, I started hanging out with, like, an alternative crowd. I was kind of feeling out with my new friends, like, are they safe? And it turns out that they were, like, I, I just got the sense that they were, like, the kids I was hanging out with, like, one, one girl, her, she had a single mom. And they were poor and they had, they just did things differently. And, um, I felt really safe and comfortable with her because I felt like she was sort of also, um, her family operated in a different way than what we saw around us as the sort of, like, gold star standard of families.

And I don't know, we like smoked cigarettes together and like we were just naughty and I remember one day when we were being naughty just telling them that my dad is gay and, and, and I think I was nervous to see what their response was, but when I felt accepted and in fact they thought it was cool, I started seeing Mitchell differently. When my friends accepted my family and my dad as being gay, I suddenly felt safe and relaxed enough to see him beyond just this like threat of Like whatever threat I saw him as it softened when I came out about my family to some friends and I started seeing him differently and then I think Because I started seeing him differently, I started acting differently towards him.

And we were able to just joke and laugh with each other. And that very organically over the years developed into a really cool camaraderie.  

And... And really when things, um, when things really started to solidify between us, it was in high school when I would get in trouble. I was constantly grounded in high school. I was just like, I just was a bit of a wild child and I loved boys. I loved partying. I loved, you know, all these things that my parents really did not want me to love. And Mitchell seemed to sort of like laugh with me and accept me for that. And I saw that and I was like, Oh, not only do I feel safe about Mitchell, but I feel safe with him to be my full self.

When, when, when we really, really like locked in and developed trust, it was when I got grounded for something for like, you know, something I did that was involved probably drinking or something. I got grounded and Mitchell sort of like came in to talk to me and he really related to me. He met me where I was at. And as a teenager who was like constantly rebelling against her parents, he sort of stepped in. And. Assumed this new different role that they couldn't which was like, hey, I'm here. I'm listening. Like what really happened? Like you must be so frustrated Hey, let me try to convince your dad that like to like go easy on you. And then I was like, yeah

And then from that point we started developing more memories together. Like he, we would go running together sometimes cause he was an avid runner and cyclist and he taught me how to run.   

Nora McInerny: The thing about being a parent is that you can only be so cool. Mitchell was VERY cool in part because he had the best role of all the adults in Julia’s life: mom and dad were parenting, running businesses and dealing with the fallout of their divorce. 

But Mitchell didn’t have all that baggage. And he didn’t have his own kids. He got to bring just himself to this relationship, and all he wanted was to have a good relationship with the kids he lived with on Wednesday nights and every other weekend. 

And that’s what he did. Consistently and competently and humbly. Until Julia left  the nest and headed to college. 

It’s 2002 and Julia is a freshman at American University in DC. When Julia left for college, she didn’t bring the shame about her family that she’s carried through her childhood in Texas. She loved that her family was different, that they were alternative, and she was proud to talk about them with her new friends. 

Julia: I remember talking to my dad on the phone when I was at college in Washington, D. C. and like, being excited to talk to Mitchell in the background. And like, I would hear his little twinkly voice and be like, wait, let me say hi to Mitchell.

I remember my freshman year, Mitchell was the one who told me that our dog, Raja, had died. And I was just crying and, you know, it was really clear to me with some distance what a family we were. And so he came to Washington, DC for work occasionally. And because that's where I went to college, we would hang out together. We would go to lunch. We really got to know each other, you know, as, as sort of as people, as adults. Um, I had a boyfriend my sophomore year of college and my dad and Mitchell came to visit and that was the first time that like we went, they took us to dinner and it was the first time I like went out onto a meal with, with a boyfriend, uh, or with like a, you know, someone I was dating with my dad and Mitchell and that the guy I was dating like really loved them. And I was like, Oh my God, cool. Like to see my dad and his partner, um, being seen as a couple by the person I was dating was like another new, it was a new moment of, of like deepening my understanding of who Mitchell was to me and to us.

and then I studied abroad in Prague my junior year of college and my dad and Mitchell and Molly came to visit me. we had like a really wonderful time together. And I remember one night we had appetizers and wine at my dad and Mitchell's like hotel and I brought all my best friends. who are still to this day like some of my best friends in the world, my best friends from college. And we all had wine and cheese and we laughed together and they got to know him and everyone I was close friends with fell in love with Mitchell.

And again, just like when I was a kid, an adolescent, when I saw Mitchell through the eyes of my friends, I saw how cool he was and I cherished him. He wasn't like a dad. He, that's the thing. He was, he was something different than anything I could have ever imagined. He was, he was just this special adult in my life who was cool, who didn't discipline me, who was handsome, who was successful, who was, um, Really independent but also like so loving and who my dad adored and who was adventurous and He was cool. 

Nora McInerny: This is why it was easy for Julia to say yes to being a Fairy Godmother. And this is why Mitchell came up in that evaluation Julia had with the psychologist. Because as Julia thought about what it would mean to be a Fairy Godmother, Mitchell's face appeared. His laugh. His Dimple. His magnetism. How he made her feel special and seen and safe…because he didn’t worry about her in the same way her parents did. 

He was an important adult, but not a parent. He enforced the rules, but he didn't make the big parenting decisions. He loved Julia, he showed up for her, and he let her be herself. 

It’s the kind of love that stays with you. The kind of love we’d be lucky to receive, or to give. And if Julia could, she’d have called Mitchell right after she agreed to step into the role he’d stepped into in 1992.

Julia: the summer between my junior and senior years of college,  I was spending the summer in Austin and And my sister and I were hanging out at the house and Mitchell, my dad was running errands and Mitchell was gardening in the front yard. And he, I heard him shout like, like he'd been hurt. He was like, panting and holding his side and clearly something was hurting him.

And, and my sister and I were like, oh my God, like, are you okay? What happened? And he goes, I don't know. I just turned and it feels like something snapped in my side. And we were like, oh no. And so my dad was gone. So I drove him to the hospital because he was in a lot of pain.

I was very nervous. I was like, what's going on here? And then my dad came and met us at the hospital and he was like, you guys go home. So my sister and I went home and I remember we looked at each other and we were like, I hope he's okay. You know, like that seems kind of like that's that's scary. Um, my dad and Mitchell came home and they said that there was something they needed to run tests. They found something kind of on his side and I remember feeling nervous and there was a part of me that's always been very intuitive and um, And since I was a child, I've actually, like, had visions, um, and, and sometimes gotten the sense, a sense of, of when things are serious. 

Um, and as a kid, in fact, I remembered looking at Mitchell and trying to imagine him as an old man. And I couldn't, I could never picture him as an old man. I would try, I would like furrow my brow and stare at him and try to see him as an old man, and I couldn't do it. And I remember in this moment when we got back from the hospital, thinking about that. And I had this weird feeling like, What if Mitchell's really sick?

Nora: Mitchell was really sick. The doctors found a tumor on his kidney. The tumor was  cancer. And the end of the summer, Mitchell started cancer treatment and Julia went back to college. 

I was fully confident that Mitchell was going to be fine. And because he was so strong and he was so positive. I lived my senior year of college with the story that Mitchell was going to be okay. Um, and every time I went home, he was deteriorating. We, you know, he's losing weight. He's, he's, um, he's looking pale. His energy is low.

By the spring, um, there's a photo that I remember of this trip. We went to Hawaii, and it was Mitchell's last trip to the beach. He loved the beach, and it was his last trip, and he was in a wheelchair. And I still thought he would be okay. I still thought he would beat it. And, yeah, there's a picture of me standing behind him in his wheelchair, at the beach, and sort of windblown, tan Mitchell for the last time.

Nora McInerny:  Mitchell died a few months later, at home, with his parents, Julia's dad, and Julia at his side. He would never be an old man.

But his love transformed Julia. It expanded her, and expanded her definition of family. And 15 years after he died, Julia would carry the torch of Mitchell’s love…and expand that definition even further. 

JULIA: When I said yes to the egg daddies...I knew that there would be a lot of unknowns with my role as Fairy Godmother, and I was okay with that ambiguity. But one question I felt I had to answer was what would this mean for my family? 

Any kids the egg daddies had would not be my children. Which meant they definitely wouldn’t be my parents' grandchildren. So how would I explain this to them? 

My parents and my sister are some of my favorite people. I love our family, and they have always supported me. But when I decided to donate my eggs, I knew it might be hard for them to wrap their heads around. 

I was raised with the story that I would grow up, get married and have kids, just like my parents did before me and their parents did before them. Even though my dad came out and my parents split up, this was still the default story. And that's really no fault of their own- they got married and had kids, and expected my sister and I would do the same. There was an assumption they'd be grandparents, and I knew my mom especially wanted that. 

I also think some of this has to do with being Jewish, because there's this trauma response that we must create new generations of our family, that otherwise we’ll die out as a people. 

All of these expectations were swirling around my head and my heart as my gut knew that donating my eggs was exactly what I wanted to do. 

I started recording voice memos of myself as I processed all of the questions I had and the changes I was going through. I was also checking in regularly with producer Claire McInerny to talk about all of this.

In the first few weeks of the egg donation process, I recorded this on the way to one of my first doctor appointments. 

Julia VM: How much do you owe your family in this decision, and how much is the decision purely yours? I think boils down to that question. How much do you owe to your family? How much is it your body? when the psychologist was talking to me about this and she said, you're, but who's your family? Is it your mom, your dad and your sister? Is it this family you're helping to create? Who is your family? When you become an adult, if you're not getting married and having kids of your own, who is your family? 

Julia: When I finally told my family, the reactions were mixed. My dad was pretty understanding, he wasn't surprised I was feeling called to do this. My mom and sister were a little worried I'd be too attached to the kids. My mom had a lot of questions about my involvement and her possible involvement. 

These questions are valid...but also, it showed me that it would take time for them to really accept this choice. 

While I was grappling with how this decision was shaking up my family of origin, I was also beginning the medical process of donating my eggs. Not the eggs I’d frozen before – I kept those for me. But I went through the whole egg retrieval process all over again, this time for them.

Julia VM: All the while, gumballs fill my ovaries, and I'm a little hormonal, a little emotional. 

Julia: This is a voice memo I recorded after the trigger shot I took leading up to my retrieval. This is the final big push of hormones.  

Julia VM: It feels like a weird time. I feel, I don't feel like a victim. I don't feel like it's not bad. It's just weird and intense. And maybe one day when I listen to this, I'll... be able to understand what was true. I don't know. Maybe it's just hormone, but something intense and powerful is happening and I hope that it's for a bigger reason. I hope this has meaning. I hope what I'm doing has meaning. Maybe that's the deepest truth is just this like real hope there is actually a meaning here that it's leading to something that I'll be able to hang my hat on. I guess the only way to find out is to live it.

Julia: So I lived it. It’s been almost two years since the retrieval, and hearing this voice memo makes me emotional ... I feel so brave for doing this. I want to hug that past version of myself, and tell her it does mean something. 

My egg retrieval went smoothly, and the egg daddies ended up with three embryos made from my eggs. In the following months they found a surrogate and started the process of IVF, and I would get periodic updates.

The first embryo is implanted. She loses the pregnancy a few weeks later. 

A couple months after that, the second one goes in. This one also doesn't take. 

The egg daddies live in a different state than me. So I wasn't seeing them during the IVF process, I was just trying to support them from afar- and it kind of felt like my first test as Fairy Godmother. Should I check in with them or wait for them to reach out? 

After the second embryo transfer failed, we only had one chance left, and I started thinking about the reality that they might not have kids. That even though I'd donated my eggs, I may never get to actually be a Fairy Godmother to any children. This thought made me sad, but I realized that either way, my mindset was forever changed. 

Julia: This whole process helped me confront my deepest insecurity: being single. I was approaching 40 and still hadn’t met a romantic partner. Stepping into this alternative role as a Fairy Godmother helped me realize I could look at my single life in a new way too. I didn’t have to follow the traditional script I had been given about kids. So why couldn’t I do the same for partnership?

The more I embraced this way of thinking about being single, the more I encountered others who felt the same way.

I started recording some of the conversations I was having with friends about this topic because it made me feel better and better about the path I was taking. 

One day, my friend Daniel and I were on a walk, and he brought up how this looks in his life.

Daniel: Well, I come from a family where it seemed, it, the narrative was that long term partnership was the norm, and it was ideal, and it was likely to lead to happiness. So basically, I was at this family reunion. And at some point, looking around the room at a dinner one night, I realized at least half people, half of the people, even in the older generations, were either never in a long term romantic partnership or no longer in one.

And it occurred to me that this narrative about like, long term romantic partnership being the norm was false. At least 50 percent of people weren't there and that it certainly wasn't the key to happiness. As demonstrated by the number of people who had gotten divorced and the number of people who had never been married that were perfectly happy. And somehow this narrative keeps getting perpetuated through the generations, even though it never... Is it this way? Uh, yeah, sure. Even though it may have never been true that it was the norm, and it may have never been true that it was the most... Direct line to meaning or happiness in life. 

No one just wants to figure out a way, no one wants to figure out a way to articulate the counter narrative.

Julia: What is the counter narrative? 

Daniel: The counter narrative is that a happy, meaningful life is accessible to you regardless of relationship status. No matter what your age is. And that there are a plethora of relationship structures and relationship pathways. Um, and that being in a long term romantic relationship, Oh, no, that's it. Um, being in a long term romantic relationship is hard. At some point, it may make you happy, and at some point, it may make you sad. It's 

Julia: not the solution to life. It is not the solution to life. It's not the silver bullet to a fulfilling life. Yeah. 

As I was getting more and more comfortable with living an alternative life, the egg daddies were still trying to conceive.

In spring 2023, almost a year after my egg retrieval procedure, after two failed attempts to transfer embryos into the surrogate…it came down to one last embryo. One last chance to make the egg daddies into actual daddies. We were all nervous and emotional. Because If this one didn't work, I worried my age would prevent me from being able to donate again. 

By this time, I had been talking to producer Claire McInerny a lot because we were going to make a story about my egg donation. 

One day in May, the egg daddies reached out, and the first call I made was to Claire. 

Claire: Tell me about the call you got a few days ago. 

Julia: I got a text from the egg daddies on Friday asking if I had a moment to chat and I honestly I was really nervous at first because I was like, shit, are they going to tell me that we like, we lost the baby? Like that it's actually like pregnancy didn't, didn't take after all. Um, and given the track record, like that wouldn't have been a huge shock. Um, So I was like, yeah, and my heart's pounding. And then, uh, they were like, we're going to FaceTime you. And I was like, Oh, this seems like maybe like, what is this good?

I don't know. And so I got a FaceTime from them and just like, I saw their faces and they looked like they had these like bewildered smiles on their faces. They were like, we're leaving the first ultrasound appointment, and we got to hear the heartbeat. And I was like, oh my god, amazing. And they, and then they said, there were two heartbeats. Twins.

Julia: All of a sudden, we went from maybe zero babies - to two babies. Instead of hypotheticals I had something real to wrap my head around. Two babies, with my DNA, would be born in  a matter of months. I was actually going to be a Fairy Godmother....and I still didn't know what that would look like. 

Claire: Do you have any fantasies about what your life as a Fairy Godmother will look like? 

Julia: There's not a lot formed around my fantasies, but there, there are pieces. I envision holding both of these babies, and, I have questions. I guess it's hard for me to allow my fantasies to take root until I know kind of like what the egg daddies want because I want to be really respectful and mindful of what the parents of these children want. And so I haven't really been letting myself fantasize that much, but I, you know, like in one version of my fantasy is like, I'm there when they're b orn and like we get to bond. But in another version of my fantasy is like, We're establishing the distance early on because that's, because I'm not their parents and I'm not, I'm not a parent. And so in that version of reality, I'm celebrating from afar with my loved ones. And, um, when I get to meet them, it's like this joyous, amazing, like occasion

yeah, I don't want to overstep and I also don't want to burden the egg daddies with my questions about it. Um, I feel like an, I feel like it's sort of like a, a go between where like, I want to share this exciting news with my parents, but I, you know, I think that like, it's kind of sad for them because like, it's not their, they're not going to be grandparents. So what are they going to be? Are they going to be anything? And I don't want to pressure the egg daddies with those questions right now, but I also feel this like pressure to, to let my parents know and to set expectations with them. Because if I just deliver the news without framing it in some way, then I don't, I know they're not going to know how to take it. And I want to help to guide their emotional response based on what. What they can expect from the role that that none of us knows what it means, you know, like we, we don't know. 

Julia: A month later, I traveled to visit the egg daddies so we could all celebrate the news of the pregnancy together. Going into that trip, I felt like it was time to try and define some details of what to expect as a known donor, and how I could prepare my mom for the news that the surrogate was pregnant.

This a voice memo I took during that trip:

Julia: I had dinner with the egg daddies the other night. Uh, where we are in the process is that the surrogate is, um, in her first trimester. And one of the biggest questions that has really been on my mind since that time and since it started feeling more real is just like, what does this mean for my parents?  

Um. I, of course, still don't really know what it means for me, but I'm okay with that. I really feel like I can handle and even a welcoming of the mystery of all of that. But what I have struggled with a little bit is just wanting to be able to share this news with my parents in a way that also gives them some understanding of what it means for them.

So what does it mean? Uh, that's just been on my mind a lot because I, um, this is probably a lot for them to take in, especially my mom. Uh, because she has wanted to be a grandmother basically since I was born. 

So, at dinner... Um, I brought this up and I, I brought it up in a way that felt good. I wanted to disarm them. I wanted to let them know that they don't need to worry or feel pressured, um, about my questions about my parents. 

I've talked to friends who are queer couples who have used donors to start a family and, you know, ask them what would they, how would they want to talk about that? And um, and what it kind of boiled down to was just sharing that I still have not shared this news with one of my parents, with my mom.And when I do that, I want to also deliver with it with a little bit of, uh, guidance about what it means.

And it was such a wonderful conversation. It just really deepened my level of connection and trust with the egg daddies and this feeling that we're, we're a team and that we are figuring it out together. Um, really what we kind of decided was like, wouldn't it be great for you guys to meet my parents and meet my family before there are children in the picture so that you're establishing some kind of familiarity. And um, and then when I sort of put that on the table, they were like, when's the best time to visit Austin? And I was so tickled. And so I think we're going to do that. And I really love, I'm loving this idea of bringing the egg daddies together with my family so that they get, as they said, a front row seat to see where half the d n a of their future children are coming from.

Julia: A few months later, they came to Austin and met my family. It was a social visit, nothing specific was decided about what life would look like once the twins arrived, but it was so special to see my parents interacting with these two men. I'd spent months worried and anxious about how this choice would change my family dynamics. I grappled a lot with the fact that my deep desire to help these men have a family was creating disappointment for my mom. 

But during their visit, she showed up. My dad hosted a BBQ at his house and most of my family came to meet the egg daddies. It was awkward at times, but really beautiful to see everyone trying. They knew this was important to me, and even if they didn't understand it, they were there. 

Of course...one person was missing. Mitchell.

He's been gone from our family for many years now, but that day I thought about him a lot as I looked around the BBQ. My dad and his new husband, happy. The egg daddies were about to be fathers, and were giddy with anticipation. My mom and her husband were curious and kind as she sat on the couch chatting with them.

This random assortment of people were standing together chatting because of me. I am part of the egg daddies family now, and I'm also still part of my family of origin. There was no wedding, but there will be children. I'm creating my own family, in my own way, and I'm still writing that story. 

The beginning of this episode ended with Mitchell's death.

So it's only fitting that we end this entire story with a birth. 

The twins were born in January 2024. At the time of recording this, I still haven't met them. The egg daddies are knee deep in juggling two newborns with the rest of their lives, but I get updates. 

I'm still figuring out what this role will be, and some days I wish I had someone to ask for advice. And the first person I would call if I could, would be Mitchell.

Claire: What do you think Mitchell would think about all of this? 

Julia: I would love to hear What he would have to say about what i'm doing now, which is like i've donated my eggs to a gay couple I'm, i'm continuing a cycle I'm, like continuing a family story in a way Um by playing this role i'm, you know, i'm i'm enabling, um, another gay family a gay couple to to have a family with children and I'm helping them to do that. And, and my role. I'm going to be the fairy godmother to these children. I hope to be like an angel to them. And I hope that I can be an angel on earth, a living angel. I hope I, you know, I hope I'm not just like a... A memory or a ghost or an apparition or a sort of outline of a figure who once was. I want to be a living source of love and, um, and, and sparkliness to the children who were going to come into the world through, you know, um, in part, um, because of some eggs that formed in my body that I donated. And I want to be, uh, I want to be a magical source of joy in their lives, just like Mitchell was in my life.

Julia: Somewhere in that 2-year process of becoming a Fairy Godmother, I made up a new word: refamulating. I felt like I needed a way to explain this process of ditching old ideas around family and formulating new ones. I wanted to talk to other people who are doing family differently, and a podcast felt like the perfect way to do it.

That’s how Refamulating was born. 

Nora: Refamulating is the newest show from Feelings Co. It's been in the works for over a year, and it's the kind of storytelling we like to do here at Terrible Thanks for Asking. Nuanced explorations of a topic that can be thorny or complicated and always very human.  

Julia: I, Julia Winston, am the host, and I’m so excited to share with you all the stories we’ve been working on. 

Claire: I’m Claire McInerny, and I’m the producer of Refamulating. If you go over to our feed right now, we have two episodes waiting for you. 

Julia: The first is about my family of origin. I interviewed my mom, dad and sister about what it meant for us to refamulate after my dad came out,There’s also an episode about a man named Tony, who spent decades on his path to becoming a dad, and got there with the help of two very special women.

The rest of season 1 includes stories about being a surrogate, how a blended family created new titles for the parents, the rise in communal living AND choosing to not have children.