20 I Refriendulating: Celebrating the platonic soulmates in life

Friendship, for many of us, can be one of the most important relationships we have, yet it doesn’t always get the attention it deserves. We throw parties and showers when someone gets married, but don’t spend enough time honoring the friends who love and accept us through life’s different chapters. In this episode, Julia talks with her platonic soul mate, Lia, about what makes their friendship special and how they’ve stayed close through hard moments that could have separated them.

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Episode transcript is below. Transcripts may not appear in their final form.
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Julia Winston: I'm Julia Winston and this is Refamulating, a show about different ways to make a family. 

One of the themes that has come up over and over again since we started Refamulating is friendship. It’s come up in interviews or when I’m talking about the show with people, but it’s also such a prominent theme in my own life. 

 I mean one of the reasons I wanted to start this show was because I was like, what does family mean for me? As a child-free woman who was single throughout most of my 20s and 30s, friends have played an outsized role in my life. And I know that this is the case for a lot of you out there, whether you’re coupled or single. For many people, our friends become our chosen family. Maybe you’ve got a big community of friends, a smaller crew of people you lean on, or there’s a specific, individual person who plays a really big role in your life: a “best friend.”

In society, we put a lot of emphasis on romantic partnership. It’s almost like love is a hierarchy with romantic love at the top, and all other forms of love are less significant. I totally bought into this belief for most of my life. When I was single I often felt like I was behind or missing out on the most important type of love. But when I look back at my life from the perspective of friendship, I can see that actually I did have a life partner. I had a best friend by my side who gave me love, support, companionship and pushed me to be the best version of myself. 

So on today's episode I want to tell you the love story between me and my best friend Lia, my platonic soulmate. 

Julia Winston: We met when we were 29. I think it was 29.

Lia: Yeah, 29 sounds right.

Julia Winston: I think all of us want to be seen and chosen. And I think that I always had the story like most women that You want a man to choose you. You want a man to, like, ride in on a white horse and, like, rescue you, you know? And something really magical that happened to me when I was 29 was that I met you. And I didn't realize that, like, feeling chosen Oh my god, I'm already gonna fucking cry.

Lia: Bring it on! Ah!

Julia Winston: like I met you and somehow without me even realizing it, I met like my person. And, and suddenly I had a person who was my person, and it's been like that for the last 12 years since we met, and it's a crazy gift that I feel like I've received in this life to have met you and, and to have become best friends with you.

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Julia Winston: When we started working on this episode, I realized that in order to tell my best friend love story, I wanted to be a guest, not a host. So our executive producer Claire McInerny stepped in as the interviewer for this one. You'll hear her voice throughout this episode as well. 

Claire McInerny: I want to hear the story of how you guys met and like, like your, your friend meet cute story. 

Lia: My husband had a birthday party, just like a casual birthday party in San Francisco in the Panhandle, which is like a big park. We invited a work friend of mine and, he brought Julia because he was like, I'm going to bring the person I'm dating. and I can picture so clearly like what you were wearing and like you had this really cool. I mean, you still have the same hair there's like big curly hair kind of on top of your head and you had like a cool bandana or headband or something and you have this big beautiful smile, which anyone who's met you knows and I just remember like, I was like, okay, Leah, like you can do this. Like you can go, like, you can go be the person, the friend pursuer and going and talking to you and having a great conversation and just getting really good vibes and pushing myself to be really open and we hit it off. We bonded over the fact that we were on the same antidepressants at the time. I don't know if you want to put that in the podcast, but, um,

Julia Winston: We were both a little bit, a little anxious. We were like, Oh my God, you're anxious too. You're an anxious Jew? Like me?

Lia: And we, we laughed at that so hard and I was like, okay, this is my person because like someone who can take the The, the things that are challenging about life and like, hold them lightly. And I just, I had not really known people to do that before. And I was, but I was craving that. And um, we laughed and we danced and we had a great time. And just like, yeah, falling head over heels in love.

Julia Winston: Totally. My, my version of the story is, is similar. But then when you reached out to me later, I was like, Whoa, she's like making an effort to be friends. This is amazing. Because I'd only lived in San Francisco for like a year at that point. And I didn't really have any friends outside of my, the people I worked with and you were someone who was really reaching out your hand to me from outside of my bubble, but you were my neighbor, so I was really pumped about the opportunity to hang out and I, I will never forget our, um, I will never forget the Hardly Strictly moment where we were in the middle of this bluegrass festival, sitting on the ground, people are dancing everywhere all around us, there's like a lot of energy, but we were like, zoom, like, we were just in a deep conversation, and we did not care what was happening around us, we were just like, in it. And people were, I remember trying to like interrupt us cause they wanted us to come hang out. And we were like, no, we're busy, which is definitely a trend that has continued. Like if we're in a moment together, like you will not enter this force field. 

Julia Winston: And I also remember, um, to your point about like the falling head over heels moment. I remember one time when you came over to my house and I was like living in this startup house with a bunch of other entrepreneurs.

And I basically, anytime I brought anyone over, We would go to my room because I, there was no private space. So I like invited you over and you like came up to my room and I remember kind of like having a crush on you and we were sitting on my bed and I was like, she's so pretty. Should I like. Try and kiss her right now. But then I was like, no, she's married and I'm straight. What turns out I wasn't totally straight. Didn't totally know that at the time, but yeah, I felt an attraction to you. You know, I was like, this person is so beautiful and intriguing to me. And I just remember. That being the beginning of a lot of curiosity and wanting to spend more time with you.

Looking back, the attraction I felt towards Lia kind of reminds me of the feeling I had in adolescence when I met a cool new girlfriend who I admired and respected. Some of us are more fluid than others when it comes to sexuality, so these attractions can be a little confusing but in this case it became clear pretty quickly the attraction between me and Lia was purely platonic - and electrically charged.

Lia: I think that that, that feeling is just like an energy, right? and there can be this like sexy energy between people which is just like I see you you see me We're vibing like our energies together are creating this like chemistry. It's chemistry. I've been with my husband for a really fucking long time haven't done a lot of like, you know dating new people. But That feeling, I imagine that is kind of like what it feels like to start to date somebody new that you really like, it's like you're, you want, like, I remember being like, Oh my gosh, I, I had similar feelings, right? Like, I want to spend all my time with this person.

Like, I can't, I get a text from them and I'm like, so excited. I'm like giddy with excitement when I go to hang out with them. And we felt pretty hard. 

Julia Winston: When Lia and I met, she’d been married for a couple years to her husband, Matt, who also plays an important role in this love story. I spent a lot of time at their house, in fact we had the keys to each other’s houses. We went hiking almost every weekend and had family dinner most Sunday nights. It wasn’t long into our friendship that Matt started calling me his wife’s wife. 

Julia Winston: Matt, um, said something so sweet to me once. it was on my birthday last year. He, he thanked me for the relationship that you and I have. And he said, Like, what you, and what you do for Leah, I'll never be able to do for her. Like, you have something totally different and unique and what you and Leah have makes our relationship better. And you can give her things that I will never be able to give her and I want to thank you for that. And that just like, Ugh, it makes me want to cry right now because it's just like the most gracious attitude a partner could have. I feel like we've been given full reign to love each other in this way that I don't, I wouldn't, neither of us would have been able to grow in our secure attachment\ in the ways that we have if you know, we hadn't both had that freedom. So I I just think there's been a level of freedom that even though our lives have looked very different in terms of being coupled And uncoupled that we've both been given the space to love each other in this way that I think is very rare 

Lia: Matt is just not a jealous person. Um, He, I mean, I even asked him, we spent New Year's together and I was like, Hey, do you ever get jealous?

I like, sometimes I ask him that and he's like, no, he's like, I'm not. Because Julia and I talk a lot, we like to pontificate about our relationship, like around him. And sometimes I'm like, I'm like, Oh, does that ever bother you? He's like, no, I'm thinking about something else, like what to make for dinner or whatever. Even the other day, I was like supposed to be cooking dinner or something and I was like, I gotta go talk to Julia for like an hour and a half on

Julia Winston: Let’s not forget, for Matt’s birthday we all went camping and like he said he got up there early and he set up the tents and everything. And you and I rolled in late And we took over the big tent and we slept together in his tent and there was this other small tent like separate and you were like, oh julia's gonna sleep with me in the main tent. I hope that's okay And he goes. Oh, I assumed i'm sleeping in this small tent.

Lia: On his own birthday.

Julia Winston: On his birthday and all of our friends were like wait all of his friends and your friends were like wait You guys are sleeping together? 

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Julia Winston: Back in the early days of our friendship, it started becoming evident that my relationship with Lia was unlike any other friendship I'd had. I called her my best friend, but that sometimes felt so trite. It's like when you're dating someone seriously, maybe you’re living together, and using the term girlfriend or boyfriend feels so juvenile for how serious it is. 

I often felt that way when talking about Lia. I had a handful of deep friendships that were really important to me, but this one felt different, and I had no words for it. Until....we traveled to Oaxaca Mexico two years into our friendship.

Julia Winston: Right when we got there, we were sitting in the town square and, This guy came up to us, this local guy who was like really young. He was in his early 20s and we thought he was trying to sell us something, but he really was just like a friendly local who was saying hi and was curious about where we came from.

And his name was Ever. And he became our friend and we ended up spending like our whole week hanging out with him and his friends. And that first day when we met him, when we were trying to describe who we were to each other and where we came from, we were like, Oh yeah, we're visiting from San Francisco. We're on vacation. We're best friends. And he was like, Oh, like Alma Gemela. And we were like, what's that? And he was like, it means like soulmate in Spanish, like a soul twin. And. We were like, yeah, that is totally what we are. And that became our nickname for each other. Like we call each other Alma G, which is shorthand for like basically platonic soulmate.

Lia: That was such a sweet moment because you're right. Best friend is not really the term. But al muhammala is like, it's a deeper thing. And we don't even just call each other that. We, we use it to describe a certain type of interaction that we have, or a certain type of, It's like when we're describing that, we're saying like, this is an Alma G moment.

It's like we, that means a really specific thing to us. We're always finding new ways that we can use that, that term because it is a deeper soul level relationship where it's like, in some ways we've always said that we're like mirroring each other's souls. We're showing each other self compassion by being compassionate to the other person. 

Julia Winston: Well, we're here to help each other grow. Like for us, we started realizing that one of the great gifts of this friendship is that we have the opportunity to help each other grow as humans, um, being more loving humans because we share so many of the same qualities that we each struggle with.

So when I see you struggling with something that I know I struggle with, By showing you compassion, it's also me showing myself compassion, and vice versa. And so that is what we've started referring to as an alma g moment. It's like if I see you struggling, but I can hold you with compassion in that moment, that's also a way of me extending love to myself. And when you do that, it's the same thing for you. And so there's this like really beautiful thing that happens, especially during moments of conflict for us. Because sometimes you're struggling on your own, and I can be there for you in an Alma G moment. And then, you know, there are times I'm struggling and you show up for me, but then there's some times where we're struggling with each other.

And those are the most powerful moments where we did just the other day decide in this sort of like progression of, um, our use of the term Alma G, that now we're using that as code for like, This is a moment where we're both struggling and let's be loving towards each other and use this moment to grow right now.

One of the most striking features about my friendship with Lia is our ability to deal with conflict. We’ve known each other for almost 12 years now, and in that time we’ve hurt each other’s feelings, we’ve had disagreements, and we’ve learned how to move through those moments in a way that makes our friendship stronger. 

One of our first conflicts happened in the first six months of knowing each other. After we met and fell in love, we planned a month-long trip to Israel and Turkey just the two of us. (As one does when falling passionately, wildly in love). During that trip, I was bonding with some locals in a way that made Lia feel left out and the tension that surfaced became impossible to ignore. When we addressed it head-on, it was the first time I saw the depth of Lia's emotional world. She shared how she felt, which was confronting for me, but we both rose to the occasion and worked through it in a loving way.

Lia: I think one thing that was kind of cool about it was like, maybe if it had happened in San Francisco, you know, you have days that would go by or weeks that would go by and you wouldn't talk about it, you wouldn't unpack it, you wouldn't sort of clear it, we had to do it like the next day because we were traveling together and we were like, we're here. I remember we were in Istanbul like walking around, I remember we'd gone to see like the Hagia Sophia and then we like sat down on a Park bench near there and like had a whole conversation about it. I feel like there hadn't been really too much in the way of conflict before that, but that was the first one where it was like, Oh wow. Yeah. Like who you are before and where you came from and all the things that you're holding, like they show up in this relationship and we had to work through it. And we, we started to build that muscle early.

Julia Winston: Spending a full month together just the two of us paired with that moment of conflict proved that we really did have something special. We knew we loved each other, and then we learned we were willing to fight for it.

Lia: I mean, I feel like on that trip, it was cool because we were really getting to know each other's backstories in this very deep way. We were, every night, you know, going to dinner, and having wine, and talking to each other, and just kind of, like, unpacking our entire lives. I heard someone say, it takes 200 hours of like shared experiences to create like a real friendship. We like way surpassed 200 hours on this trip.

Julia Winston: As the years went on, we encountered moments of divergence that went deeper than just feeling left out of a hang. The biggest one happened in 2019 when Lia got pregnant. For years Lia and Matt felt like family and Lia was able to prioritize me in a way that not all married people do. But in 2019... that changed. 

Lia: Matt and I got pregnant and we moved to Oakland and bought a house and that was right before COVID and then COVID happened. And then Julia was like in a kind of not a great relationship that ended kind of right around then. And it was like, one of these moments where like, So much change was happening for both of us in very opposite directions and life circumstances had changed such that I couldn't just like spend the kind of time with her that we had before and she was used to, you know, being included in the unit in a certain way. And we were trying, but it wasn't hard because of COVID. It was just like all these circumstances that kind of like blew up and that was the low point of our relationship, um, for sure. 

Julia Winston: it was like, so painful for me to know that you and Matt and River were just down the street, but like, I, I wasn't part of the unit. I couldn't be because of COVID and I resented you and I resented things. And I also knew that that wasn't correct or healthy, like that, that wasn't fair. You didn't have any control over that. You were doing what you needed to do. I think that that was when I kind of recognized that there was a level of codependence that had in our relationship where I was really needing my connection with you and your family unit in order to feel complete in my life in the bay area. And You know, it was really hard, but I I had to come I had to see that clearly in order to make the tough choice to move back to Austin after almost a decade of living in the Bay Area because I was like, it's time for me to go home to my family.

Lia: It was devastating for me. And I know hard for her too, in a lot of ways. and I'll never forget, uh, Julia, I think about this all the time, how like we were on the phone and I was just like, I was crying. I was so upset. I mean, I'm supporting, cause I knew why you were moving and I absolutely understood why you would make that choice. And I supported it and I got it. And I was like there for it. I was like, if I were you, I would do the same thing, but I hadn't been able to fully understand the pain you'd been experiencing and the way that you'd been kind of like the day to day of like what your life had been like. I just couldn't understand it and that was hard for you and hard for me too. And um, we were talking and you were like, this is gonna be better for our relationship. Like this is what I need to do, like part of it. It's like you weren't moving because of our relationship, but you were like I'm making this choice in part because I, I, I know this is like actually going to strengthen our relationship.

Julia Winston: It was really hard. I mean, that was like a really tough time. I also remember. Like vaguely understanding, but like recognizing that I couldn't fully understand how much you wanted me to see what your life was like as a new mom. Like you had a baby and I, I had my own needs from you, which was to feel accepted and to feel part of the family, you know, part of your life in a way that you couldn't, but then my pain was like taking over my ability to even see you clearly in your journey as a new mom. 

Lia: motherhood has been beautiful and wonderful and also like so challenging and life shattering and required really deep personal work for me. , and I think it wasn't even until pretty recently, I think that Julia had a deeper understanding of kind of like what that's looked like for me internally. And so, um, it's those ways in which we, we, we, We have separation. 

Julia Winston: So we just like, were not able to be close in the way that both of us wanted at that time. And I do feel like it was like, oh my gosh, we, if we want our friendship to remain strong, like this, this is a moment where it could like, it could crumble a little bit and I really appreciate hearing you recognize, you know that that prescience because I'd been working through it a lot in therapy I really had no other relationships to like talk about at that time.

I don't know if anyone out there has ever seen broad city, but I freaking love that show and like we have this joke so Abby and Alana have this like amazing best friendship and then there's like this one moment in this episode of Broad City where they're making a joke of their codependence and they start calling it Lil Cody and I was like, oh my god, yes!

Lia: Yeah. yeah, we like realized that sometimes we were holding things back that were important for us to grow as a whole individual human and person.

Julia Winston: We didn’t want to hurt each other's feelings.

Lia: and that's, you know, that was the little Cody and it's like, okay, how do we both be whole and continue to grow on our own because we had become like so intertwined with each other's lives by that point. We, we sometimes see it crop up, but now we know it and we say, Oh, little Cody and we can like be, we can be light about it.

Julia Winston: Yes. Thank god for these like code words. 

Claire McInerny: Julia, I want to go back to something you said when you guys were talking about like that really painful moment where you were going back to Austin, you were kind of recognizing like there was a lot of codependency, but you said that you, you told Leah it would be better for your relationship and like, what made you think it would be better?

Julia Winston: I’m gonna go on a little tangent, but I'm gonna answer your question. I used to have this corporate job and I got to a certain point where like nine months had gone by and I was like This is not working like something is not working here. And I didn't know what to do and I felt really hopeless and I remember having this sort of like epiphany That either I could change my attitude, I could change my situation, Or I could do both and I ended up doing both. I ended up leaving, like changing my attitude and leaving that job and becoming a contractor and still working with them. I just needed to shift my relationship with them. And I think that subconsciously I felt that same sort of feeling when I got to this place where I was miserable during COVID and I felt hopeless.

I felt like I had reached the end of some sort of road. And what started becoming clear to me was that I needed to change my attitude. And I was having a hard time doing that in my circumstances. And so I was like, I need to change my circumstances in order to change my attitude. I needed to do both. I knew that I would be a better version of myself if I did that. And that that would translate to my relationship with Leah because I was putting so much pressure on our relationship to give me connection and I just wasn't going to be able to get everything from this one source.

It's kind of like in a romantic relationship, if you're depending entirely on your romantic partner to get all of your needs met, it's going to break under the weight of that pressure. And I felt like that was sort of starting to happen for me and Leah. And I think part of the reason I knew that is because in my journaling and in my, In my therapy, there was a level of intensity and attention on my relationship with Leah that was unhealthy.

And, I, I understand now that it's because I didn't have enough filling me outside of the relationship. And, It wasn't going to happen in Oakland living alone during a pandemic. And so I knew it was time to move on and it was a bit of a leap of faith because I didn't really know I didn't really know how things would change It was scary because then we were going to enter for the first time in the live The lifetime of our friendship a long distance friendship and that was a huge jump for us. But um, I knew that it was time to begin again And I also knew that we had already departed anyways from the way things had been because she was a mom and I wasn't so things were going to change anyways. 

Claire McInerny: I want to ask how parenthood for you, Leah, cause that's a big shift, you know, you, a lot of your energy has to go to caring for a baby. So what did that look like for you too?

Lia: Yeah, I think Julia left River, my son, was about 19 months or so, um, or 20 months when she left. So we had a little go at it. Right. I Mean, part of my entry to motherhood was pretty rocky and it was just such a, I mean, it was, um, It was, some people have a smoother time at it. It was not smooth for me for a variety of reasons. I had a really big, intense job at the time. My husband also was working a lot away from the home. Um, once COVID hit, that helped a little bit. Um, but then that isolated us completely. I totally had postpartum anxiety, but I was Didn't want to admit it and was sort of running from that and I felt like my own sense of being like alone and in an echo chamber and you know Terrified and anxious all the time and not like myself I didn't feel like myself for probably like two years after my son's birth. I had a totally different envisioned motherhood being really different than it was. And I felt a lot of like shame about that. And it felt very hard to talk about, about just like the challenge, the way that it was hard for me.

And so I think I didn't have language for that and I didn't know how to talk about it. And I didn't know how to talk about it with somebody who, I mean, I could barely even talk about it with like, other moms who didn't seem like they were struggling. But at the time I was really like, whoa, this isn't what I thought it was going to be. I'm really freaked out by it. I'm freaked out by my own experience of it. And I wasn't able to share that with Julia, um, probably partly because she wasn't having that experience and I, I didn't want to, I, I felt so much pressure even in my relationship with her to kind of like show up a certain way around motherhood and it took a long time to unwind that. So there was that and I also could tell that. The very fact that I had a baby and that Matt and I were this unit was really painful for her. I mean, I knew, this is where a little Cody comes up because I would withhold some of the hard stuff, but I would also withhold a lot of the joy, um, because I didn't want to, I didn't want to cause Julia pain, you know, and that was, um, to the detriment of our relationship because I think Julia didn't understand or have a clear picture at all of what mothering was like for me, the ups and the downs.

And I really hid that from her. It was not her fault. And I was like so cautious to not want to trigger her. And, um, some of my pain has been around like seeing all the freedom and space that Julia has, which is like sometimes painful for me to witness. Um, because I feel so constricted, restricted in terms of my time and energy and movement.

We have made an effort to be together one on one in some capacity every year.And it truly is like medicine for me. I take that back to my life, my parenting.

Claire McInerny: Julia, what was your experience when Leah had started going into motherhood, like what's the flip side of what she just talked about?

Julia Winston: Oh man, you know, I think one of my, uh, challenges is, uh, for anyone who's familiar with the Enneagram, I'm an Enneagram seven. And so I love having a million experiences, but the, the shadow is that I don't like when things are not pleasant. And so I tend to hide from that. 

When I think back to when leah first got pregnant, I think I started feeling a schism um when I started feeling A little bit of a drift within myself when she and Matt started trying to get pregnant because I knew I think I was almost protecting myself like, Oh, things are going to change.

I need to go find my own sources of social connection and fulfillment to prepare myself for this. And around that time, um, I was like hosting a lot of events and I was spending a lot of time. You know, with like, uh, you know, various communities and I was really like revving up and I think I, I remember, I don't know if you remember this Leah, but I think there were some times during that period, like when you were getting pregnant, when you got pregnant and the challenges that you had to on your fertility journey, I was with you, but I also like couldn't relate to you and I was just kind of disappearing into my like party friend, you know, social butterfly mode.

And I could see that that, that there was a gap. Yeah. You know, a little bit of a wedge forming between us. It wasn't anything that was going to break our friendship, but I felt that there was like a little bit of distance creeping in just because we were no longer fully on the same page. So I think I was doing a lot of like preparing myself, protecting myself from distance by creating it a little bit. And, um, and then, but it was also so beautiful. Like, I was so happy for her and Matt, and I will never forget showing up the day River was born. And I had been listening on repeat to Leon Bridges song River and playing it in the hospital and just being, feeling so, like, connected to their baby and holding him and So much care for Leah and Matt, bringing them pizza and wanting to be part of their lives. Um, so it's all true, I was protecting myself from the distance that was forming inevitably through our difference in experiences. And I was also like, so it was also such a beautiful evolution of watching my best friend become a mother.

Julia Winston: Earlier, Lia and I described how Alma G is our name for each other but also a way to describe moments when one of us feels the need to reconnect. One of us might shoot the other one a text and say something like, “hey boo can we have an alma G moment?” It's a soft way to open up a vulnerable conversations that will hopefully lead to us getting closer and understanding each other better when things get tough.

Lia: I think that the crux of almost all of our, like, moments of conflict have been around moments where we haven't been able to truly see or witness each other's experience, I would say. And sometimes those are little, little tiny things. Most of the time it's around bigger stuff. Like, there are ways in which Julia and my lived experience are very similar, and in some ways, like, we are soul twins. Like, our souls are very similar in a lot of ways. And our lived experiences have been really different in a lot of ways too. And in some ways that have been like painful or brought up challenges for the other.

And sometimes we just simply can't see the other person's experience. And that has been hard. Um, and in those moments, we've had to like call the other one into understanding. Where we're at and, and being more, it's like you want this person to just know, right? We often say like, I wish I could just download my brain to you, you know, um, but you have to explain. And, and so I think the moment, the places where we're separate have sometimes caused this, the conflict. And when we come together to talk about it, we get an opportunity to really see the other person and everything that they're holding. That's hard. And what's, and the good, obviously too.

Julia Winston: I think that was so well said. Actually, I got emotional hearing you talk about, um, that we, we've grown in our secure attachment to each other through that. I feel like every time we've had a moment of conflict, um, It's been an opportunity for us to practice trusting that we're going to make it through it and knowing that we're both equally committed I think that's something really important is there's a level of reciprocity In our like we are both equally committed to being there like there's never a question that one of us is going to turn and walk away or abandon each other and that's been really important for us because one of the things that We experience in this life that's similar is we've, we've had insecurity about is, you know, being left behind or being excluded.

And so we really get to practice like ensuring, reassuring the other person that like, I'm here, I'm not going anywhere. And over the years, we've come to really trust (and know that that’s true)

Leah is married and she's been in a relationship for a really long time and she has two kids. I am newly in a relationship, but I've spent most of my adult life single and I don't have children and So there are, there are ways that we've lived our lives that are just different from each other. I've gotten opportunities as a single person that Leah hasn't as someone who's coupled and now has children.

She's experienced love and intimacy in ways that I just haven't as someone who's been really single for most of my life. And so I think that when the challenges, um, or joys that have arisen for each of us, uh, are something that the other person just can't understand. And we're wanting to be held by our Alma G in those moments, but like she doesn't know how or doesn't understand the significance of the moment. It can be excruciating because that's like the person who you feel like should be there for you the most during a time when things are hard. But like if she's on her own path and doesn't really get it, she can't. And so the only way for us to get there is to really bring the other person in, and that can be really vulnerable

Julia Winston: My relationship with Lia taught me that a friend can be a great love in your life. That a friendship can be as supportive and special as a romantic partner. But not everyone prioritizes friendship this way, and it's no wonder because society doesn’t recognize its importance. We really have to fight for our friendships. An metaphor I read about recently that speaks to this perfectly comes from the book Big Friendship by Aminatou Sow and Ann Friedman. It’s this idea of a burner on a stove. There are four burners on a stove and each burner represents an important part of life. Family, friends, work, and health. And when things get busy, the friendship burner is the first to fall off. Even though they’re crucial to our health and wellbeing, we’re not conditioned to value friendship as much as the other three. 

This can be especially challenging when one friend starts a family and the other doesn’t, because priorities and availabilities start to shift. And that’s something Lia and I have navigated as she’s moved into her role as a mother. 

Claire McInerny: It sounds like, you know, certain moments have happened and you've learned from them and you were saying, like, now it's easier to address things, but like, how do you start those conversations and how did you, when you first started get the courage or find the words or say it in a way where the other person would understand and not get defensive or something.

Lia: I feel like one thing that's, oh, that's really true about Julia and I individually, and this is probably why we've been able to be, why we're Alma Gs, but is because we do our own personal work and we are deeply aware of what our own personal work is. And we're also aware of what the other person's personal work is. I remember in the beginning, I would feel really flooded with emotion and a lot of anxiety of friendships where I'd been burned in the past, you know, um, or some anxious attachments shit that would come up and I would feel flooded.

But over time as I learned, I feel like I gained so much more like emotional agility through my relationship with Julia. And by that I mean, like, really understanding what emotions were coming up and understanding the way that they were working within me and we would talk about these things and we had such an awareness of each other's stuff because we would talk about it all the time in the context of our relationships with other people and other things that were coming up in our lives. And so when I would bring something to Julia, it was with this perspective of like, Hey, I know. And even just the other day, I was like, Hey, I know a lot of this is mine to own. And I can also imagine that if I were you and knowing what I know about you, that I would feel this way. And we have a very global awareness of each other's strengths of each other's shadows. And also, um, History. And so, and, and we're always doing our work. Like, I know that if I say something to Julia, like, she is going to think about it, and she's going to take it to heart. She's going to integrate it into her own personal work that she's doing, and her own, like, Her own exploration, and she trusts me to do the same, and so it's never with a blame or with any kind of accusation.

Julia Winston: At this point in my life, no one knows me better than Lia. It takes years of sharing  intimate moments - both joyful and challenging - to really know someone and build the kind of trust and resilience Lia and I have built. When you’re first getting to know someone, conflict can bring up anxiety because you’re not sure if they’re gonna stick around, or if you’ll want to. But over the years, Lia and I have proven to each other that we will, no matter what. We’ve given each other the gift of secure attachment. 

Lia: And I think, again, that took practice. It wasn't always easy. I think in the beginning we were like, Alright, I'm showing up to the table, and like, it might be really uncomfortable, and like, sometimes it is, but I'm just gonna keep showing up. And then over time These conversations have become so transformative because there's always light bulbs and always ahas in them. Um, but it's that willingness to do your own personal work that's, I think, necessary and the willingness to be like, hey, I seem, I own my part in this, um, and I know how, These are dynamics. It's not me. It's like us. And, um, Julia and I have always held the us.

Julia Winston: I love that answer. It's just like, oh, it's so satisfying. And I think there's one other thing I would add. Which is, it's too precious to let go. You know, I think we've always just known that, that like there's something really special here and part of what is so special is the chemistry that Leah talked about early on, but it's also like, it's very rare to meet someone who just feels like a fit.

When you meet a human who feels like a fit, regardless of the context, whether it's romantic or otherwise. That's something to hold on to, that's something to fight for, and so when things aren't perfect, even if it's super uncomfortable and I really don't want to deal with it, like, I don't want to lose Leah and so I'm going to pay that price of discomfort in the moment in order to keep investing more deeply in the relationship.

And I, I just like, I've, I've had so many wonderful friends through my life, which has been a gift, but there's this thing with Leah where like, not only is there an emotional and spiritual and mental and intellectual resonance, but we like all the same stuff. We like hiking. We like traveling. We have a similar sense of humor. We enjoy the same like books and films and there's just so much in common that it would be a massive loss. 

Julia Winston: Beyond our years of shared history, these common interests are what have kept Lia and I close when other factors strain our friendship. When she became a mother, when we’ve had moments of tension, we know we’ve got other, simpler, things to fall back on to feel connected. And I realize after more than a decade of friendship with Lia how important that is. When things get hard, and even when they don’t feel totally resolved, we keep talking it out as we lean on our shared interests. We just keep going.

It is worth the investment. The short term pain is worth the depth of investment because the friendship keeps generatively. The friendship keeps generating more and more riches for me in my inner world and just in my lived experience. So like it's worth it and I've learned that now. I, I wish I could go back in time and like talk to Julia and Leah of 10 years ago when we were like fresh into our, you know, a couple of years into our friendship and be like, why are you in these hard moments? Why are you sticking around? But right now it's so obvious that like, it's worth it. It's worth the investment. Yeah,

Lia: I think every time we have one of those conversations, it, it unlocks like a next like level of our friendship. And that's the reason why we keep doing it because we know that it's necessary to grow the relationship and to deepen the relationship.  It's like we didn't even know what it could possibly become, but we, we somehow knew. I love that answer so much. I think it's so true. I mean, I've never felt anything except for like, just pure love underneath the hard conversations. And Julia is you are love, you know, in so many ways and you just don't walk away from that. Like you, you, you got me for life. You're stuck with me. Um. And it's just, it's like, I, like I said, I can't imagine my life without you. I know that like, when we're old and gray, like we're going to be hanging out, we're going to be talking about this, we're going to be talking about all the times, you know? And I have a vision for us now of that time and like to continue deepening into that. And so I'm like, I'm, I'm in it for the long haul and probably a future life too, because our souls are twins. 

Julia Winston: We’ll be back again. I, I feel the same way and I feel like even in this moment, so seen by you, like. In my meditation practice every day I try to be love and like for you to say that it's like there's no deeper way I could feel seen by you than to hear that from the person who I've like really been through it with like if you still feel that way about me even though we've been through hard times and you I feel like you really get me.

Lia: Yeah.

Julia Winston: I also just like I Enjoy you I think you're like such an Unbelievable being and like, I love like just seeing you in the world, you know, and I also like I see where you are now and I see how devoted you are to just being the best version of you and I see you becoming that version more and more every day. There is so much depth and capacity for depth that you have that a lot of people don't have. With the joy and the silliness and also the shadow and the tough stuff. It's really like, I see the elder Leah, like I see you as an elder and I'm like, Oh my God, I just want to like, I just want to like sit at her feet by the fire and look into her eyes. Like for her to tell me everything about life.

Lia: Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. We'll be sitting together. We'll be sitting together.

Julia Winston: Yeah, we'll be holding hands.

19 I Finding Peace with Parents Who Don't Fully Accept You

Disagreeing with your family is nothing new. But in the last decade, as life and politics in the U.S. have become increasingly polarized, so have many of our families. Jedidiah Jenkins felt this kind of division in his family from a young age when he realized he was gay in an evangelical Christian environment. Now an adult, Jedidiah has figured out how to maintain a loving, supportive relationship with his mother despite their ideological differences. In this episode, Jedidiah shares how to set boundaries with a parent and how standing your ground with love can lead to deeper understanding.

Read Jedidiah’s book: Mother, Nature: A 5,000-Mile Journey to Discover if a Mother and Son Can Survive Their Differences

Listen to the full conversation with Jedidiah and his mom on his podcast Question The Self.

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Episode transcript is below. Transcripts may not appear in their final form.
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Julia Winston: I'm Julia Winston and this is Refamulating, a show that explores different ways to make a family. 

Today we dive into one of life's most meaningful and nuanced relationships: the one between parents and children. Specifically, we'll be hearing the story of an adult man navigating his evolving relationship with his mother. The punchline? It’s complicated.

My mom used to tell me that being a parent doesn't come with an instruction manual. Well, here's the thing – neither does being someone's child. The people who raise us become our first teachers in what it means to be human, for better or worse. Our parents lay the foundation for how we view the world, how we form relationships, and often, how we see ourselves.

Some of us are blessed with relationships that flow easily, marked by understanding and acceptance. Others navigate waters that are much more turbulent, where the relationship carries a lot of cracks and wounds. Many of us find ourselves somewhere in between, experiencing both moments of meaningful connection and painful disconnect with the people who brought us into this world.

Jedidiah Jenkins:  If you have mother abandonment, like that is just a primal wound. So I don't have that. My mom is not abandoning me, which is key. And she's a delight to be around.  But the challenge is that her political beliefs are diametrically opposed to mine. And her religious beliefs injure me and are the tradition from which I escaped. 

Julia Winston: This is Jedidiah Jenkins. He’s a writer and author, and he’s written a lot about his relationship with his mom, who is also a writer. The big difference between them is that Jedidiah is gay, and his mother is an evangelical Christian. 

Jedidiah and his mother have very different views about religion, politics, and sexuality. But…they also have a very loving relationship. Jedidiah calls her one of his favorite people. His latest book, Mother Nature, is about a cross-country road trip he took with his mom when she turned 70 to see if they could survive their differences. It turns out they could, but it’s required them both to accept each other, in spite of their differences.

Jedidiah Jenkins: I've had to learn to navigate and push back on like some of the narratives from the gay community of like, if they don't accept all of who you are, kick them to the curb, like partial acceptance is not acceptable. That is like a real message, and I'm like, that is not true. That is actually a very small minded way of seeing people.

Julia Winston: At a moment when families everywhere are grappling with deep divisions – not just around sexuality, but across every fault line of belief and identity – many of us are asking ourselves hard questions about how to maintain relationships with people we love but disagree with. 

There's no single right answer, and sometimes creating distance is the most healing choice. 

But Jedidiah's story invites us to consider another possibility: what happens when we stay? 

Julia Winston: So first I'm curious to hear about your family and your life growing up. What, what did your family look like? Paint a picture for us of your childhood.

Jedidiah Jenkins: I grew up in Middle Tennessee. as a kid I was on a farm south of Nashville. And so I grew up playing in the creek, catching turtles, like, running around in the woods. It was unbelievable. My parents got divorced when I was very young. Maybe four or five. I don't have a memory of that. I like have flashes of them being together, but my dad was also a travel writer and so he was gone, so I don't really, I do not have a conscious memory of the trauma of divorce at all.

I just like suddenly had two Christmases and like, great, okay, this is just what people do. I have an older sister, a younger brother, and then eventually a younger half sister. And it was a great, Tennessee is a great place to grow up, like. I had a great time. 

My mom had custody, so my mom was just a great caring mother. She had a lot to deal with. My older sister was a wild, rebellious, like monster to her. And my little brother had pretty serious health problems from the jump. So I was kind of the middle child who was not forgotten, but I didn't want to rock the boat because it felt very tenuous to just make it through the day, which I think has really greatly impacted my life and my personality that I don't want to ask for help and I don't want to be a problem and I figure things out on my own because especially like, you know, with sexuality, those things and those questions might start to arise, you know, between 7, 8, years old. And that was really when my family was in chaos and my brother and sister's problems seemed so obvious and mine was really more just questions and then those questions would really get answered on Sunday morning at church or at school with the way kids teased. 

And so the questions that I was quietly asking the universe were answered through bullying, through mean comments, and through pastors at the pulpit. Which is a very uniquely challenging thing for a queer person because your otherizing and your otherness is private that you want to hide. Whereas, you know, if your otherness is skin color and you're at the lunch table, you can find somebody that looks like you and go sit with them. But queerness is this uniquely insidious problem where that's the opposite of what you want to do. If someone is showing those signs, you don't want to be associated with them because that's social suicide. So it's even more alienating in such a sad way. So all that to say, I like, I really think that's what turned me into a writer and a creative and an artist because the world was not made for me and I was like, okay, well, I could either rage against the machine or I could commit myself to understanding how the machine works so that I can survive.

Julia Winston: So what was the arc of your own relationship with your identity as a queer person and how did that play out in your family?

Jedidiah Jenkins: I knew something was different in third grade. I knew what it was called in seventh grade and I knew that it was bad and I kind of thought it would go away. And then by like, I would say middle of high school, I realized that it doesn't go away and it has, it's an identity. By the end of high school, I realized I should tell people because I think I am this thing, like it's not a phase, like it's here to stay. And I've never been attracted to a female in any way other than giggling and like gossiping. And so I decided, cause I, I knew, I always knew I was going to California for college.

And so I basically made sure summer before I went to college, I told all my best friends. But my friends were like thinking people like we had a Bible study, but it was like. It was really like a philosophy club. It was unbelievable. So anyway, I told my best guy friends and they were all so supportive and we love you and we don't care, like. I told all my friends, it was unbelievable.

But I didn't tell my family. I mean, my mom had made it clear that, like, being gay was wrong. But she'd never talked to me about it. And so, I would say my freshman or sophomore year. Might have been my freshman year, in college. My sister, older sister, was getting married and my mom, like on the phone, just asked me. She said, do you think you'll ever get married? And I said, I don't know, mom, that question's complicated. And then she said, are you gay? And I was like, oh my god, I'm being bamboozled.

Uh, uh, uh, yes. And it was just, she cried, and, uh, like, of course, she had wondered, since I was, like, very little. Mothers always know or have some knowledge, but she just prayed so hard against it, because in her world view, it's It's just a sin. It's like separation from God, because that's not what God wants. It's a hard life, all these things. Then like I told my siblings or maybe she told my siblings and they seem totally fine with it.

And then my dad called me and was like, I don't care. You can be exactly who you are. He said, I just hope you don't make being gay your whole identity. Like you're more than that, which now I see was probably like interwoven with some like homophobia and femophobia and like, just don't be one of those annoying gays, like be one of the ones that's quiet about it. And so really it was just my mom who wasn't down. 

Julia Winston: His mom was not supportive of his sexuality, but she didn’t reject him as a person, or as her son. And I know that sadly, that’s not always the case. Many queer people are mistreated and rejected by their families. But Jedidiah still felt love and support from his mom in other ways, so he didn’t want to walk away from their relationship. 

Julia Winston: let's go into your relationship with your mom a little bit. I'm curious to hear more about the nature of your relationship with your mother. Talk to me about what makes you close. In what ways do you feel close to your mom and in what ways do you feel distant from your mom? 

Jedidiah Jenkins: My mom is an amazing woman in spite of her damaging beliefs, which she believes are the end all be all. My mom and I get along really well because she is funny and curious and bright. She wants to like, go on a road trip, see where the waterfall is, go into the antique store, talk to the lady and ask where the best pancakes are, like, we share that in common, and she's just this bright shining light.

Plus the fact that she has like unwavering undying motherly love for her kids. Like if I need something, she would dig up Mount Everest to dust to help her children. That's a profoundly valuable understanding to move through the world with as a kid, like when you go off on your own and you're a young adult, like to know that there is a plan Z that if like all hell breaks loose, you can go to your mom if you run out of money. If you get arrested, if you get injured, like she will be there. If your house burns down, she will be there. And I've always lived life with that knowledge. And quite a few people do not have that. And that is like a permanent wound, no matter how tough you are. If you've been like, if you have mother abandonment, like that is just a primal wound. So I don't have that. My mom is not abandoning me, which is key. And she's a delight to be around. But the challenge is that her political beliefs are diametrically opposed to mine. And her religious beliefs injure me and are the tradition from which I escaped. 

Now, do I believe that God has a plan and like trusting in God for, for the days and like you are not in control and like the all, all those things I believe. And I think that's so beautiful and a wonderful pragmatic way to live your life. But atonement for sins, man is wretched. We are meant to burn unless you follow the words of this book. Like. No, I actually find that to be harmful and to use their language evil. And so, I mean, and that is, that is the most important thing in her life above her children, above all is her relationship to God through the lens of Christianity.

So that's a big rift. And so I've had to learn to navigate and push back on like some of the narratives from the gay community of like, if they don't accept all of who you are, kick them to the curb, like partial acceptance is not acceptable. Basically, if they don't love you as you are, they don't actually love you. That is like a real message, and I'm like, that is not true. That is actually a very small minded way of seeing people, and it's actually using the tools of the oppressor on, on the oppressor, as the oppressed, which is just, I think, unwise. And that was just like something it took me a long time to realize but that is like where I stand today It's like I'm just not gonna move through the world like that,

Jedidiah Jenkins: And I remember in 2000, oh God, I should really know this, but when, when the Supreme court basically approved gay marriage as a thing we do in this country, I remember watching the news so ecstatic and I saw like mothers and sons crying and hugging and I saw like. My friend, my gay friends, like celebrating with their moms. And I remember having like a really deep melancholy about that of just like, wow, that will never come from me. Like I will, this major part of me, one of the largest parts of someone's life, which is who they love and potentially spend their life with. We'll just not include her. So that was, that's always been a challenge. 

Julia Winston: Yes, that at the core of that's really kind of at the core of this conversation that we're having. And I think what is really important for us to talk about, especially when we talk about family dynamics, is that it could be all or nothing. It could be. all Jesus Christ and, um, homophobic perspective or all kick them to the curb if they don't support you. But there is this entire world that could invite much more love and nuance and understanding if we were to embrace it just a little bit more, which is not all or nothing. It's not black or white. It's not binary, and so that's what I'm really curious to hear more about you from like the journey for you of understanding these extreme perspectives that would actually lead you to have a real rift with your mother. What were some of the key moments for you that you understood that there are these extreme perspectives and how have you found your perspective in the middle there?

Jedidiah Jenkins: I have to always give the caveat of that like my mom is A hoot. My mom is an angel, so funny, so sweet, not belligerent, not cruel. And like, these are things like, when I've met people with mothers like this, that are just vicious, cutting, belittling, self righteous, sanctimonious, and I'm like, I don't know if I could be that way, like, I don't know if I could be who I am today and have the relationship that I have with my mom if my mom was acting like that.

I don't think I could. But what I'm dealing with, this specific thing, is a wonderful woman with beliefs I don't hold. Who still wants to be in a relationship with me. And, I would say there's a few elements to, quote unquote, how I do it, and probably how she does it. Which is One, I built my own life and my own chosen family of absolutely unconditional support. Like I have chosen friends and family that like love me exactly as I am, root for me, check on me, worry about me. Like I basically built the dream family that I couldn't get from my one in Tennessee because don't know. I came to California and I found it. And so what happened there in my twenties and thirties was I built this strength in myself, knowing that I'm basically healing the little boy in my mind. If I trip and fall, someone will catch me. We all want that. And I think people feel very claustrophobic when they don't have that, and the only person that can catch them is a danger zone, which is their cruel mother. She'll still catch you, but on her terms.

And so, like, I think that creates, an existential claustrophobia, which makes people freak out and And feel very unsettled. And so I built this like inner peace in myself where if I lost my mother and if I couldn't handle her, I would be okay. If I never spoke to her again, I would be okay. And from that point of strength, I was able to approach her again and choose relationship with her because I do want her in my life.

And I do want to fall into her arms if I get hurt. But it's not my only option. And so, that gave me, the fortitude to stand in my own space and feel okay being in 80 percent relationship with her. We talk, we catch up, we check on each other, I go home for Christmas, we go on trips together, we laugh, we go to lunch, like, I get to have my mom, to a degree, and to a majority degree, and just because I don't get a hundred percent Doesn't mean the other 80 70 percent are not absolutely nourishing and worth That sounds so clinical, but like, that is how I see it. I'm like, I don't need 100%. 

Julia Winston: I feel like actually the clinical part is, is actually quite helpful because what we're saying is like, You can't get a hundred percent. It's not fair to expect a hundred percent from anyone. Just like it's not accurate to get a hundred percent hatred of this or of this other perspective. So you're finding like the way that you're finding a happy medium or a middle way is to just expect what's realistic from your Yes. 

Jedidiah Jenkins: I want exactly what she can give me and I'll give her what I can give her. And I like it. Like, I love, I think an underappreciated art that we're all doing all the time is pretending is playing just like la, la, la. Good to see you. Love you. Oh my gosh. Like. And we think that's being phony, but I'm just like, not everything has to be litigated all the time.

Kindness, civility, laughter, playfulness. Those are basically paying into the bank of affection that makes you survive conflict. And I'm just like, do that. You do not have to litigate everything all the time. Send a loving note. Do these bids of affection because that just like makes a relationship. I just don't want to fight my whole life. I just want to love people and be kind. And I want to love my mom and I want my mom to love me. And I'm telling you, it really works for me.

Julia Winston: Yeah, I mean what you're saying is running counter to a cultural narrative that we've all been feeding into well all but many people have been feeding into over the past I would say probably a decade or two which is about authenticity. I'm, I'm all about authenticity. I also do think I've come to learn that there are a It's not that there are limits to that, but like, if you want to have an effective relationship with someone that maybe there are these, um, thresholds that you don't step over where it's like, okay, I'm not going to actually, to your point about litigation, I don't actually need to assert my full perspective here and expect you to come meet it in order to keep my authenticity, what if the quality of the relationship actually asks me to step back a little bit from that authenticity so that I can connect and that we're all compromising a little bit on our authenticity to connect in a meaningful

Jedidiah Jenkins: well, I think that that's how beautifully put. I think you're exactly right. It's like we've put authenticity on this altar, which I think it should be. I'm obsessed. I feel like a very authentic person, but I think authenticity should be tempered by humility and respect. It's like, I don't actually know everything all the time. I don't know why you said that. I don't know why you think that. And me flying off the handle, just because you rubbed me the wrong way, I might just be hungry. I might have a headache. Like, there's all these things where just being kind and nice and funny, like, I just see it as lubricating the harder conversations.

I think it was Esther Perel or one of these genius people said, If you're ever in an argument with your boyfriend, girlfriend, spouse, or you're having a hard conversation, hold their hand and pet their hand. Like touch them affectionately. When you think about getting in an argument with someone You're sitting on the couch with your arms folded tight and you're like closing yourself off physically but if you remain physically open it actually keeps the part of your brain open that can learn new information as opposed to just Shutting down and calling your lawyer, which is your memory of the things that you already believe and it's like Keeping that in all sorts of relationships is just a better way to live life. And that doesn't mean you're inauthentic.

Julia Winston: I want to bring in Jedidiah’s mom, Barbara, for a minute here. Last year, Jedidiah interviewed her on his podcast Know The Self. They talked about their relationship and their family, and I want to play a clip so you can get a sense of their dynamic.

Jedidiah Jenkins: you read my first book to shake the sleeping self and my second one, some of it, I'm sure. And then this one is you're a major character in my life because you're, I mean, everyone's, most people's mothers are one of the biggest character of their life. 

But you know, the way I write about you and the way I write about the church and the certain things of my life, I, my experience with that is pain.  And so in some ways, like you are a pain point for me, but, but then again, you're not, you're like my favorite person, but it's like certain beliefs and certain structures of your, of, of your beliefs and the structures of things we did growing up were hard for me. 

Do you feel like I do seek to understand you? Do you feel like I treat you fairly? Do you f What does it feel like to be written about? 

Mom: Well, first of all, you're a wonderful son,  I'm very proud of you,  um, you, you have such an inquisitive mind,  and  as your mother, I've always felt that God had a plan and a purpose for your life. I think that, that you, um,  you're, you're on a journey, Jed.  And at different parts of a journey, you think differently,  and you feel differently.

And I'm going to compare this to my mother. When I was young,  I had so much anger and so many  things about her I didn't like. There were things about her I loved, but she was a very difficult, demanding, and in many ways a cruel mother.  But yet, because I think in my heart of hearts,  I truly wanted a relationship.

I wanted, I wanted to love her. I wanted things to be the way I wanted them.  So I think my journey, what my journey taught me about my mother was that if you are blessed to live long enough.  Which I was with my mother.  I was 60 years old before  I lost her  and  I was able  to make a lot of peace in my heart toward her.

I was able to forgive the things of the past because I think when you get older  you begin to understand  that it isn't that people are mean It's just that they are, they're hurting, or they're confused, or they don't know what to do. So, so you, I think you learn to offer a lot of grace and give people a lot of space and a lot of room for God to work in their lives.

So that's how I feel about you. I don't have to manipulate you. I don't have to tell you what to do or how to live. Now I may disagree. with some of the things that you do, but that's between me and God, and I will,  just like Abraham put Isaac on the altar,  I put my children on the altar, and I pray for you every day. Because at the end of your life, you don't have to answer to me.  You have to answer to the living God. And so,  I'm able to hold you with an open hand and say, Jed.  I love you,  forgive me where I have failed you,  and  whatever our differences,  God is in the business of redeeming. 

Julia Winston: How have you seen yourself seek to understand her? Because on one hand you have this part of you that's like, I do not, like, I think your Christianity is harmful to me. then on the other hand, you, the only way for you to have a strong relationship is to both be understood and to understand. So how have you seen yourself compromise or, uh, expand in order to bring that understanding to her?

Jedidiah Jenkins: I think my mom has a harder job than I did because I used to be Evangelical Christian. And so I remember that feeling of laying down my life To the scripture and to God's plan. So I have a sense memory of her worldview. She has never had my worldview and layer in the context of the work of the life that she has lived, which is jesus, you know, she gave her life to Jesus in high school and, or younger, and has just been this good Christian girl who like wants to be a, serve the Lord. And her husband cheats on her. She's left alone raising three kids. And the only thing she can do is pray to Jesus. So Jesus becomes her husband.

Add to the mix her little effeminate son is playing with Barbies and my little ponies and she is seeing on the news that there's this new thing in the eighties called gay cancer called AIDS and it's killing gay men and the pastors are saying, see, the, the cost of sin is death. Yeah. And how scary so like to to reprogram all of that is like above my pay grade and it's actually I'm not interested in doing that because that is the thing that is her entire operating system and she's 77 years old like girl sing hallelujah all the way home like am not about to change you. 

Another, like, tool that I would use if you have this ability is, is take the time to get to know your parents as they were in their 20s and 30s. Like, understand that your parent is a child that got older. That is a young person, however old you are right now. Let's say you don't have children. Your parents probably had children at the age you're at right now. Doesn't that sound scary? Do you feel ready to have children? If you have three children right now, do you feel ready right now? Like they just did it in the eighties or the seventies or whatever. It's like, they are young people who got older and they're still that young person in their mind. And so get to know that person and it will defang so much of their power.

Julia Winston: Okay, to that end, about getting to know your mother when she was in her 20s, I want to talk about Mother Nature. tell us about Mother Nature, what is this book that you wrote, what led you to decide to write it?

 Jedidiah Jenkins: Yeah, so my first three books I realized are really a mother trilogy. They're like all me unpacking my relationship with my mother. And the third book is the culmination where I just take it dead on. And I really just had this thought that I Want to know my mom as she was like I want to go on a trip with her and her alone. And originally the trip was and I still haven't given up hope we were gonna go on a Glenn Beck Republican cruise from Italy to Israel and She invited me all excited and I was like, you know mom, you know, that's my actual hell But then I was like wait, this could be the funniest book Of all time.

Like, me, I still want to do it, so stay tuned. But I, I just realized, oh my god, I want to go on a trip with my mom, and I want to know her. And so, the interesting and unusual thing about my mom is in the 70s, her and my dad walked across America. They wrote for National Geographic, and they lived on the road for five years walking across this country and writing about it, so it was this big, hippie adventure. Like, they're on the cover of National Geographic. August 1979, if you want to look it up. And that was all before I was born. And it's this huge adventure, which made them pretty famous. And I was like, wow. But then my parents got divorced early in the eighties.

And so like that great adventure and that fame also had like kind of a sting to it as I was growing up, because it was camelot lost and so there was so much I didn't know and I just had this idea I was like mom should we do a road trip and retrace your walk across America? And then you tell me stories about what it was like like because Lord knows I haven't read those books I can't bear to but let's go on a road trip, and she was thrilled of course. I mean most mothers would be thrilled if their adult son said let me take you on a road trip. And so we retraced her steps and to my delight and surprise My mom had a fat journal.

She wrote every single day of her walk. I've never seen this journal. I didn't even know it existed She has notes from every day every town every step. And so I'm and she did the walk from age like 29 to 32 or whatever because she did three years of the walk My dad walked from New York to New Orleans met my mom fell in love with her convinced her to then walk from New Orleans. So we did the road trip from New Orleans to Oregon.

And so just like got to really know my mom in a, in a new way, but also, and this is why I highly recommend being a writer and is that I am a coward and I'm scared of confrontation. And I have, I realized that I have lived my life wondering if, when I get married to a gay man, would my mom come to the wedding? And I realized, I am 40 years old, and I don't know the answer to that, and I'm terrified of the answer. And so, this is why I suggest writing books about your life, is that like, I would never have asked my mom if I didn't have a book. And I was like, this book is gonna force me to have a hard conversation, which I'm too chicken shit to have.

But if I feel like a journalist, of my own life. It gives me confidence and a little distance. And so the book is me like challenging myself, getting to know my mom and going on this adventure with her. And it is unbelievably expansive and cathartic for my own mind and life and still very challenging. I don't know, it's my, it's my love letter and my fist fight with my mom.

Julia Winston: Wow. What did you learn about your mom and about your relationship with your mom?

Jedidiah Jenkins: I learned some of the things that I said just moments ago about just like, where her head was at when she was with my dad, when she was young, when she was divorcing him. Like, those are just things I didn't know. And really humanizing this like, alien force known as the mother into this young girl from the Ozarks. Who's trying to have a good life and she had a lot of dreams. She had dreams of being with my dad forever and having a cabin in Colorado and, you know, all these dreams collapsed. And that's a really interesting thing to talk to a woman in her 70s about all the dreams deferred and destroyed. And how you have to find new dreams and, you know, to young people you have all these dreams and you don't know which ones are going to really hurt you.

Julia Winston: It sounds like you gained a lot of empathy for your mom on that trip.

Jedidiah Jenkins: Yeah, I did. I mean, I ga That's the thing, is when you really see where someone's coming from, it's hard to turn them into a cartoon.

Julia Winston: Brene Brown has this great quote, it's hard to hate up close. And I love that because like, right. I feel like maybe. in some ways, if you have the desire and the curiosity and enough, um, enough of an open door between you, if you do have tension with a parent or someone in your family, it almost just seems like that leaning in, getting closer and wanting to get to know them is actually kind of how you find that middle ground, like you were saying reach out, put your hand on their hand, like get a little bit closer, which takes courage and bravery to, I mean, you had the courage and bravery to, to like step towards you know, this worldview that actually really disregards your existence.

Jedidiah Jenkins: I also like, I'm deeply impacted by and affected by the like human instinct to find your parent very annoying and entrapping and like spending time with them. Like I've always been fascinated by this instinct where the moment I'm far away from my family, I'm singing their praises. I'm loving them. And then I'm like, Oh my God, I can't wait for Christmas. And then I'm in the house for approximately 13 minutes. And someone's talking and I want to rip my ears and go hide. And I'm like on walks just to like not be in the house. So one way I think if you do feel like a little pull on your heart to like go on a trip with a parent or whatever is like you can actually set yourself up for success. Like go on, go on a trip where you're doing things and seeing things together where you're not necessarily looking at each other, but you're shoulder to shoulder doing something together.

So there's something to talk about and the parent isn't just staring at you and like asking you all these annoying questions. Or Another serious life hack, this is a major one, let your parent bring a friend. So this is a role reversal if you remember when you would go on family trips as a teenager and your parents let you bring a friend. Like this what I do I'm if my mom brings a friend and the three of us go on a trip I'm basically their chauffeur.

This has had a profound impact on spending time with my mom because My mom is getting to hang out with her son And go on an adventure, which she loves. But I'm also seeing my mom from a new perspective. She's in the backseat, giggling about an inside joke with her friend. She doesn't talk like that to her kids. Like, there's a side of her that I have never been exposed to, because my mom is not my friend. Even though I want to, you know, like, she's as close as she can be, but she's still my mom. Where like, the way friends behave is, is, it's actually really profound to see your parent. And then the trigger of your mom asking you questions, About how are your friends? How's your living situation? How's whatever? How's your career? Whatever. When a parent asks you those questions, sometimes you have that flight rage of just like shut up and you go fine, fine. But, but what's so interesting is if your mom's friend asks you, yeah, talk all day. You'll tell them everything mom is sitting there in shock that you have all these words. You're like, oh my god. It's just, these are like, psychological workarounds to having a great time with a parent.

Julia Winston: Whoa. That is such an unlock. I love

Jedidiah Jenkins: Yeah. 

Julia Winston: Earlier I asked what you learned about your mom and your relationship on this trip. Now I’m curious to know what you learned about yourself. What changed within you?

Jedidiah Jenkins: I mean, one thing was I basically asked her the hardest question I've ever asked her and have like a full actual debate argument with her that's not over email, but like live. And I finally like every last thing I could ever say or believe I said. So that she has no, she has no hope of a different outcome based on my, of what she's decided she thinks I might believe. And that like final stand was really liberating because now like I realized I lived in a little fear of her knowing the full me. And I kind of had this Realization it was like she shows me the full her all the time and she knows I don't like it She sends me like, you know, Jesus Bitcoin scams or whatever and like whatever the heck she's talking about and I'm like And she knows I do not like it.

And so I'm like, well, why can't I show her things? Like I'm an adult, like I can do exactly what she does. Cause I don't need to tiptoe around her ever again. And if she chooses to be in a relationship with me, well, I choose to be in a relationship with her. It was sort of like my ultimate final stand that I am an adult and that I am in an adult relationship with my mother. That was like the profound shift.

Jedidiah Jenkins: What I'm just saying is like standing on your own two feet, regardless of the response where it doesn't actually matter how they respond. It's that you stood your own ground face to face with the parent who is like still backstage pulling strings. It is like the final umbilical cord cut of adulthood. And I think so many people live their whole life and their parents die and they never actually cut that cord.

Julia Winston: I, I, I feel like, um, I'm getting like teary eyed and also like a well of emotion right now because I recently had an experience like that with my own mother this past year. And it's led to so much liberation for me. And, um, Um, what I really want to hear from you is how do you stand up to your mother with love? Because I think that the fear a lot of people have, and I know the fear I had was if I really stand up and stand my ground and cut the umbilical cord, I'm worried I'm going to injure her or injure our relationship in some way that. is impossible to heal and the answer to that is probably to do this with love. And so, how do you think about that?

Jedidiah Jenkins: Well, I think that the, The underlying fear of almost every argument is rejection and abandonment. It's usually not even what you're talking about. It's like, will you leave me? Will you never talk to me again? Will I be alone? And I think that's also a fear of a parent about their child standing up and they actually use whether they know it or not, their parental power to maintain that sometimes. And to make sure that the umbilical is still there. I am your mother, you know? And so I think for me, in these really hard conversations with my mom, I was like, mom, I believe XYZ. I will not believe your X, Y, Z, and I'm not going anywhere. I love you. I will always love you. You can reject me. You can pray against me. All the things. I'll still come knocking at your door. You can, you can rage and I will still come to the door. I will never stop. Which is what mothers often do. And I say that because I feel very confident in loving my own life and loving myself. Her rejection no longer, of course it would hurt me, but I've just like built a community of acceptance so rich that like I'm not left alone in the wilderness. And so, like, I think the way that I've been able to stand up is letting her know. That I know at the core, she wants relationship with her son more than she wants, you know, philosophical and religious agreement 

Julia Winston: When I pose the question of how do you stand your ground and also do it with love? I didn't know how I would answer it. And then when you answered it, I I um I realized that I had a similar experience. My sort of come to Jesus moment with my mom was, um, in a therapy session, which because she agreed to come with me to therapy is how I know that she is just as devoted as I am to being in relationship. And when we were there, one of the sessions, she kind of asked me, If, if we were at risk of her getting estranged and it was only then that I understood how terrified she was of my boundaries amounting to a rift, like a genuine rift. And so something maternal came through me in that, in that therapy session where I said, mom, I am never going to leave you. I love you. There's nothing that could happen that would make me turn my back on you. Period. An entirely separate conversation is something I want to have within the understanding that I am not going anywhere and I love you.

Jedidiah Jenkins: Hmm.

Julia Winston: And then we were able to have this conversation and it's like, I didn't plan that. I just suddenly saw the child in her who needed to be reassured that I was going to be there.

Jedidiah Jenkins: That is, uh, I have chills. That is exactly the moment where you have the, the rush of the parental feeling for your parent. Of like, Oh my gosh, this little, this little baby bird is scared. And you like, you suddenly empathize with that. That is like such a moment. That's exactly the moment I fell. 

Well, and I, another like example of like practices and empathy is I think about like my mom's beliefs about queerness and same sex love. And I just think about like, I'm obsessed with history and I read about like the civil war and like how all these good Christians thought slavery was okay. And then my grandparents thinking that interracial marriage is not okay. And I'm just like, These evolutions and understanding come for every generation and I am not immune. And so no matter how wonderful I think I am, if I have kids someday, they're probably going to scream in my face that I am old fashioned and bigoted about something that I don't even know what it is yet.

Julia Winston: Yeah. I, I think that's, , So humbling and important to remember that, you know, to the point of this, like these generational divides, we will be the Crusty old people one day who like, don't get it. Yeah. I mean, we're already kind of, we're kind of getting there fast.

Jedidiah Jenkins: Thank God I'm tired of being relevant.

18 I There’s Nothing Wrong With You! You’re Just Single

Almost half of American adults are single, yet we still treat being unpartnered as a problem to solve. But being single is not better or worse than being in a relationship, it’s just a different experience. In this episode, Julia interviews her single friends about what they love about being single and how they navigate a world built for couples. 

Then she chats with author Glynnis MacNicol about challenging the narrative that women need to be partnered to be happy.  

Check out Glynnis MacNicol’s books, No One Tells You This and I’m Mostly Here To Enjoy Myself. You can read her New York Times articles here.

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Episode transcript is below. Transcripts may not appear in their final form.
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Julia Winston: I’m Julia Winston and this is Refamulating, a podcast that explores all the ways to make a family.

How would you describe yourself? For me, the first place my mind goes is: I’m a 40-year old Jewish woman, I’m unmarried and child-free, I’m a Texan, I’m a daughter, a sister, a friend, and a podcast host. I’m a bunch of other things too, of course, but these are the labels society puts on me - and the labels I put on myself.

For most of my life, "single” has been one of the most prominent labels I would use to describe myself. “Single.” It’s a loaded word, and for me it has come with many joys and many challenges. One of the reasons I started this show is because I wanted to feel less alone as I wrestled with the question, “what does family mean for me as a single person?” I donated my eggs to help other people start their family and that felt great but who would my family be? 

To be honest, I always felt a lot of shame about being single. I’ve had a great career, I’m blessed with many friends, I even bought a house, but for most of my adult life I haven’t had a romantic partner and that missing puzzle piece has made me feel like a failure.

But why? Why have I felt that way? Well, because society told me to. Our larger culture told me I should be partnered. That message has been hammered into each of us from every possible direction since the moment we entered the world. We hear it from older generations, we see it in the movies and the media, and we feel it in our laws and policies, which all favor heteronormative couples. 

So when I learned that almost half of American adults are single - that is people who have never been married or have been divorced or widowed - I was stunned. How could our social narratives be so out of balance with reality? 

This statistic comforted me because I felt less alone. I realized this is not a "me" problem, and in fact maybe it's not a problem at all. Maybe being single these days is just normal. 

But I also found it disturbing, because it likely means that around half the adult population in the US feels the way I’ve felt, which is to say: inadequate. Inferior. Incomplete.  

As we discussed in episode 11, Reframing the American Dream: Part 1, there are many other ways humans have lived throughout history that do not reflect couples and nuclear families. We are hurting ourselves by perpetuating this story that we should all be coupled. We’re especially hurting women, and we have been for a long time.

The purpose of this episode is not to analyze why so many of us are single these days. The intention here is to simply honor the experience of being a single person in today’s world. And with Valentine’s Day coming up this week, what better time to celebrate single people, who never get any love on Valentine’s Day?

A personal note here: I’m someone who has been single for most Valentine’s Days throughout my life, but since we started working on this episode, I’ve actually started a relationship with someone who feels like a true fit - something I’ve never experienced until now. So going back to that question I posed about how you would describe yourself - well, my sense of self is changing. When it comes to being single, I am refamulating. But I will never forget how it feels to be single in a world that glorifies romantic partnership. 

And by the way, partnership is not a fixed state. Just because you’re partnered now, doesn’t mean you always were, or that you always will be. We all have or will live our lives as a single person at some point. And being single is not better or worse than being in a relationship, it’s just a different experience. So if we want to extend more love to the single versions of ourselves we’ve been or will be - and to almost half of today’s U.S. population - it’s up to all of us to flip the script. 

First, I’m going to introduce you to some of the amazing single people I know about their experiences…

Margie: I'm happy I'm single because the alternative isn't Prince Charming. It's one of the losers I've dated

Julia Winston: bGlynnis MacNicol: I'm enjoying the person that I am. I think the irony of sort of sliding off cultural narrative is it can be both punishing, but it can be both freeing too, because there's no path laid out here for me of how this is supposed to go. So I'm going to continue down the path of what makes me feel the best.

Julia Winston: This one goes out to all the single people out there. I see you. And guess what? There’s nothing wrong with you. And also…I love you.

 Julia Winston: Hosting a podcast is a great excuse to ask people probing questions about deep shit and I wanted to go deep about being single. So I reached out to a handful of single people I know. They all live in different places and have been single for different amounts of time. These are people I know who I’ve been in the trenches with for years when it comes to being single. Being single gets a bad rap but I know that there are so many awesome things about it. So the first thing I wanted to know is what do they love about being single?

Margie: Making big life decisions like by myself and doing whatever I want to do whenever I want to do it.

Julia Winston: This is my friend Margie. She’s in her early 40s, she’s one of the most brilliant women I know. And she’s been single for a long time.

Joanna: Generally speaking, just not having to navigate someone else's schedule or preferences feels very liberating and freeing.

Julia Winston: That's Joanna, one of my closest friends who lives in Oakland.

And this is Alex, we used to work together.

Alex: Mostly, I love the freedom and flexibility that I get to choose my own path and have my own life 

Rachel: to me, being single is a luxurious way to spend the day. Um, I can choose how to fill my time, how not to fill my time without having to explain it or justify it. 

Julia Winston: That's Rachel, she’s a writer and one of my besties in Austin.

Rey Joaquin: I think what I love about being single is that I can Walk around naked and not have to put myself together for anybody 

Julia Winston: Yes honey, me too Rey. I looooove walking around naked! 

Allie: it's just nice to sort of be free and in my own energy and able to move about the world, um, thinking about myself and what feels best for me as opposed to always having to compromise with another person.

Julia Winston: Allie is a soul sister music producer who lives in both Berlin and Mexico City. 

Tal Lee: I'm an empath, and so when I'm with someone else, it's almost compulsive that I'm constantly thinking about what they need, what they're feeling, what their schedule is, what their people are doing. 

Julia Winston: That’s my friend Tal Lee, who actually reminded me about a bunch of reasons I’ve loved being single. 

Tal Lee: there's something really freeing about not having that second center of gravity and being just truly centered in myself. I feel like I get to be a really good friend because my friends are my community and my relationships right now. I get to do a really kick ass job at work because I can work in the evenings if I need to or want to and can kind of organize my life around that to the degree that that feels right. And then I get to be really present and committed to my hobbies because I can spend Friday night tango dancing or spend all of Sunday gardening, um, and there's really nothing holding me back from that.

Julia Winston: I think we’re expected to beat ourselves up for being single but actually for many of us, but if you haven’t met someone who feels like a good fit, why would you give up all the awesome things about being single? 

Margie: Like I'm happy I'm single because the alternative isn't Prince Charming. It's one of the losers I've dated and I'm so happy I haven't married any of the losers I've dated. I want big partnership. I don't want just to feel validated. And I feel like a lot of my friends got married cause they wanted to feel chosen and not left out  of this club.

And honestly, I think it's a little bit of a pyramid scheme.  And people keep recruiting you into it.  Join us in our misery. Yeah, join us. We're not going to tell you how bad, like, the margins are for these Cutco knives.

Julia Winston: So yes, there’s a lot to appreciate about being single. And we shouldn’t overlook these things! But I don’t want to sugar coat it because like anything in life, there are times when being single sucks. I know this intimately well, but I wanted to hear about it from other people. I found it healing to hear from my friends about what they find challenging about being single.  

Rachel: I often worry what people think, not what they think about me being single, but whether they think that me being single means that someone doesn't want to be with me or some type of narrative that there's something wrong with me.

Julia Winston: Girl, me too. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve felt that way. Hearing this from another person made me feel less alone, but it also bummed me out because I think a lot of people feel that way. When I asked what their biggest insecurities are about being single, that feeling was at the core.

Tal Lee: I think the biggest one is that there must be something wrong with me

Joanna: how people perceive me and I think primarily if they think that there's something wrong with me.

Alex: I think the biggest thing is that our society isn't built for single people, and sometimes I feel insecure that I don't fit into the mold.

Rey Joaquin: I often think about How I'm not Good enough And perhaps maybe that's why I'm still single. 

Tal Lee: If everyone else has found their person and I haven't, that must mean I'm not enough in some way, that there's something wrong with me.

Rey Joaquin: So that bleeds into, like, I don't look a certain way, I'm too brown, I'm too gay, or not gay enough. I think all of that brings out a lot of, um, My insecurities about my worth.

Alex: I think a lot of people, especially in older generations, have some pity for single people or see it as a deficit and sometimes I take that on and feel like it is a deficit or something is broken within me.

Julia Winston: That's so true. I have a physical response in my body when I listen to all of these thoughts because I have felt this so deeply. It’s sometimes hard to tell the difference between how you feel and how other people think you should feel. Here’s Margie again:

Margie: I always feel like I'm okay with being single when I'm by myself. It's when I'm like with other people and they project things. And I'm like, wait, should I feel that way? Should I be nervous about that? it's subtle in the zeitgeist, but you can hear, like, I was just watching, like, a Real Housewives, uh, reunion, and a dig women give to other digs of, like, well, you, you're not even married.

So, like, as much as we've progressed, you still know there's a hierarchy, um, communicated subtly, directly, indirectly to you. people try to fix your singleness status a lot. Um, Where I'm like, you want me to fix your marital status? Because I know shit about your marriage that I'm not saying anything about. 

Julia Winston: Beyond negative perceptions about being single, there are some real practical challenges. 

Margie: I think there's like with singleness, there's a little bit of an existential dread, like no one's assigned to like, take care of you if something happens. If you lose your job, there's not a second salary you can, or like health insurance, you can draft off of for a couple of months. It's like, you've got to figure it out and quick.

Here's Joanna: 

Joanna: in a lot of ways that our society is shaped to support people who are in partnerships or traditional families, even as something as mundane as taxes, um, or going on a vacation. Typically the cost per person for a single person to go on a trip is 15 to 30 percent higher than that if you were to get like a double occupant. Occupancy, occupancy room, and it just makes me feel like I'm constantly being financially penalized for not having found the person that I want to spend my life with. Even in terms of sharing rent or buying a home, these things feel much more burdensome, um, not just financially, but in terms of major decision making because I'm making these decisions pretty much alone by myself.

I can't help but feel as if I'm just not meeting the same adult milestones as my peers. And as much as I've tried to think about the things I enjoy about my life and hold those present for myself, it does, your brain naturally compares yourself to the people that you spend your time with.

Julia Winston: Yup, check check check. I’ve definitely felt socially and financially punished for not having a partner. And it can be a really lonely experience because couples don’t have to worry about things like that. 

I know another thing that can be really stressful as a single person is wrestling with the question of what to do if you think you want to have kids. Not everyone I talked to wants to be a parent, but Tal Lee does. 

Tal Lee: when I think about fertility, the stress is around finding the partner to build a family with. I, I do have my eggs frozen, so I have the option, but I would really love to do it in partnership with someone.

So does Rachel: 

Rachel: I really want to be A mother and not because my biological clock is ticking or that I have maternal proclivities or that society expects it of me, but because there is this inner knowing and longing. 

Julia Winston: It is very vulnerable to talk so openly honestly about being single. I know first hand how private it is to think about the joys and the challenges, so I want to thank all of my friends for sharing their truths with us. 

I want to sit with this feeling of longing that Rachel just mentioned. This feeling of longing is like an old friend for me. We do ourselves a disservice by saying being single is either good or bad. Like everything in life, it’s all true. The complexity of accepting and loving your single life, while also longing for companionship is one of the most natural things in the world.

Rachel: I celebrate my independence. I just feel so fortunate to live this way, and I also recognize that that same feeling coexists with the part of me that aches for love and partnership. And the part of me who still does want to have this idealized family life in some way, shape or form, even though not only does it not look like the version that I imagined as a child, but I don't actually want it to look that way anymore. And still I am here struggling how to hold space for understanding that these two things Are in both conflict and in conversation with one another. 

Julia Winston: So for anyone listening who is single at this moment in time, everything you feel about being single is valid. We can hold it all. 

When we come back, we go deep about what it’s like to fully embrace being single with author Glynnis MacNicol.

Julia Winston: Anyone who has been single amidst a sea of married friends has probably, at some point, felt like a failure. And that’s because, especially for us women, we spend the first part of our lives being bombarded with stories and narratives about a woman FINALLY finding happiness when she falls in love. Or becomes a mother. So when you don’t achieve those things it’s easy to feel like you failed. But as I’ve gotten older and spent more time being single, I’ve realized that the feeling of failure has come from comparing myself to these stories. But what if there had been different stories to compare myself to? What if there were a slew of Disney movies about young girls pursuing a creative passion. Or a rom com about beautiful friendships and building community?  

Glynnis MacNicol: It's hard for me to think in a grounded way about partnership or even thinking of myself as being single in those terms because I just sort of have don't, Frame my life in those terms anymore.

Julia Winston: This is Glynnis Macnicol. She’s a writer who lives in New York City, and has written a lot about her life as a single, child-free woman in her 40s and now 50s.

Glynnis MacNicol: there's no happy stories about women that don't end with wedding or a baby, and like just purely enjoyment for enjoyment's sake. it's the absence of narratives to me. It's that so many women are leading lives,outside of, you know, motherhood outside of partnership, and we don't have any narratives attached to that, that we still default onto, you know, you're either frivolous or sad or bitter or lonely. And, and certainly we all experience, all people experience all of those emotions because we're, you know, human, but to attach those primarily to single women, I think far more than men .

Julia Winston: Glynnis has a lot to say about the stories we tell about single women. 

Glynnis MacNicol: I moved through the world with so many women who've made similar choices, and, uh, Few of us experience this is the primary way that we operate, and we're not seeing any versions of our life culturally that would even suggest that this is enjoyable, or there's pleasure to be had, or these choices are rewarding in and of themselves, or that we're fully fleshed out people all on our own without, you know, being parents or parenting.And so I we still don't know how to tell stories about women outside of these tropes, even as a majority of women are living outside of these tropes.

And so not seeing yourself reflected is punishing for anyone, right? It leads to unfair laws. And just personally, it can be excruciating to just not think that you exist in the world. You have to develop such a strong belief in your own experience you don't see it reflected because when there's no ritual or celebration around any element of your life, you just have to believe yourself that you're enjoying yourself.

Julia Winston: Glynnis writes about enjoying herself as a single, aging woman without kids. Her latest book, "I'm Just Here to Enjoy Myself," is a memoir about a summer of seeking pleasure in Paris the year she turned 50. Her first memoir, "No One Tells You This" is about when Glynnis turned 40 and chose to let go of the narrative that she was a failure because she was single. I read it when I turned 40, and I was single at the time so it was a very empowering perspective for me. 

Glynnis MacNicol: When I was turning 40 that came out of no one tells you this is that I was really having to ask myself Did I believe that I was enjoying the life I like my life wasn't an accident. It was intentional. Understanding it was intentional and then really asking myself, was I enjoying this life I had chosen for myself? I was having to make up my own mind about it with no reassurances in sort of the larger cultural narrative, and that's difficult and can feel very gaslighting. when you can't participate in cultural rituals You really have to say to yourself, like, I really am having a good time. 

Julia Winston:  Yeah the reality is, single people have to reassure themselves because cultural narratives tell us we shouldn’t be content until we find our person or get married. That’s when we’ve ARRIVED! 

But that’s ridiculous. Because not everyone in a relationship is happy or fulfilled, just like not everyone who’s single is happy or fulfilled. But sometimes people are! So if someone is having a great time being single, why would we discredit that? We don’t go around asking our married friends “are you SURE you’re happy”???? 

Glynnis mentioned cultural rituals and I want to dig into that. Things like weddings, baby showers, and housewarming parties are all popular celebrations - But all of these milestones are focused on the nuclear family. If you're like Glynnis, single and child-free, it’s like there’s no reason to celebrate. 

Glynnis MacNicol: The absence of a rite of passage, a tradition, is a narrative. There's a reason why we still struggle to have any films, again, that are not, She's a success. She either dies in the end or we know she's a success because, you know, she found love or Children like we thought they these rites of passage are narratives. And that's how we know that you have progressed. And when When you don't have a right of passage, you have no sense of momentum or that you or recognition that you have Progressed or your life is progressing. And subsequently, you are always the witness to other people's progress, but there's no witness to you.

This sense that you were the audience and not such a tick tock phrase, but like not main character energy. and I want the progress, the fact that I continue to develop and evolve and face challenges and become a different person is just as true, sometimes more so, when you're outside of partnership or parenthood than not, and it's How do you measure it when there's no measuring stick? I think is the thing that we are both coming back to and that sense of being left behind is simply because there is no way to measure how much you're progressing. 

Julia Winston: So if you're in your 30s or 40s and you're single. You've definitely gone through this experience that I'm about to describe. So your best friend gets married, or they get pregnant, they start building a family. Your life starts diverging. There's a chasm between you and the people that you've been closest to and something is getting lost.

Even if you're still really close and you feel fully seen by them, this chasm creates this experience where you're like, Oh, now I'm alone having to reinforce that I'm having a good time and that I'm okay. And you feel a little bit left behind. And then it happens over and over again. And with every wedding or birth or life event, You, you are having this experience of grief because you're losing something, but it's invisible. And you can't ask anyone to acknowledge it because they're having a rite of passage. So this, you've referred to as the disappearing act of friends. And it's something that I was excruciating for me in my 30s. And I've eased up on that.

Glynnis MacNicol:It is really hard in those first five years because small kids are consuming. And that's just the reality of the situation.after that five year period, though, I have found so many of my friends have come back because their friendship circles diminished enormously because they only have time. They don't have time that they are desperate for your friendship that Your friendships can evolve if you hang on Friendships go through ups and downs, long term friendships the same way marriages do, even though we still don't fully recognize the prime primacy of friendships in our lives. 

And so, like, I do sort of say to people like if this is a friendship you want at some it's not always going to be fair, like it might be the next few years you're going to be the person. It's Who's got to do the holding on and then that switches again but that those friendships come back around in really extraordinary ways that if you can allow yourself to be open to it, which is not easy, um, The balance shifts and in it's, in it's wonderful and, and rewarding and enriching, but you have to sort of try and see over that hump, which is really tough.

This is something I've been thinking about a lot recently, feeling left behind. I definitely felt as I wrote about no one told you this in my late thirties that I was like a decade behind everyone else. And all I can tell you turning 50 is I'm a decade ahead of everyone else. because once you have kids, you are like in it for a long and I'm just, I have like leapfrogged over it where I feel like I've reached the point at 50 that most people traditionally have not gotten to until 65 or 68 from like life decisions and financial restrictions and all this other stuff.

And I, that I'm able to get here at an age where like physically I still have the energy and um, Outlook and excitement has made me feel like it's a weird shift that happened in the last few years where I'm like, oh man I'm so far ahead of everyone else. It's fantastic.

Julia Winston: I think there's probably a lot of single people who are like, Oh no, I've been left behind. And then they're in their, you know, they're in their struggle with that. And then, okay, so five years later, people start coming back. But like, they didn't have a sense of community maybe. So how have your friends played a role in your life? And how do you create a community of people who provide the same care and support that, you know, many people find with a partner and kids.

Glynnis MacNicol: In my late thirties, when, excuse me, that core group of friends I have, some of whom I'd lived with for a decade, um, Really moved on and it was so destabilizing and, and it should be destabilizing. And I think again, that's where we, you know, the punishment of not having ritual or like the grief you experienced, like it should be destabilizing your entire infrastructure, your financial infrastructure, your emotional infrastructure leaves, and there's no obligation to say, like, how is this impacting you? And then it's a cause for celebration. And you are sort of cast in this role of like, Oh, you're bitter about this. Cause it's not happening to you. And you're like, actually, this is really tough because my entire life has been upended without anyone checking in to see how this is impacting me. I think at some point I was using a table analogy, like you have a table with four legs and. Three of them are removed and it's like everything gets wobbly and crazy. And it's like, well, how do you achieve sort of like stability is I started making more friends, Which I recognize it's not does not come as naturally to people.

But I really recognized that I needed a wider, um, support system or I wasn't going to survive this in any real way. And travel was part of that, But, whenever I travel somewhere, go somewhere new, I ask everyone I know if they know someone there and I meet everyone and sometimes it turns out to just be a coffee.  But sometimes like my close I have a very close friendship circle in Paris at this point, which started out with like a random blind friend date. 

And so I just made more and more friends. And as you age, the people time to be friends with you are often people who have made similar life decisions that you've made. And I'm, I don't discriminate with age either. I mean, I have friends in their twenties and I have friends in their sixties. And I have a lot of friends my age. So I try and just remain extraordinarily open to it. And the result is I'm 50 with like a really deep bench. 

Julia Winston: I’ve also found that focusing on friendship and community is a really enriching source of connection as a single person. But it’s still hard to watch coupled people move on and shift their attention to marriage and children. There have been many times over the years when I’ve asked myself, “Am I doing something wrong?” 

Glynnis MacNicol: when I feel like that, it's usually my, me responding to Instagram, which is reinforcing certain narratives. So whenever I feel, or I'm like, Oh. I'm not ever going to have that. I actually go to a home where everyone has the thing I don't have. And I'm like, Oh God, I don't want any of this. Like I'm very, it's oftentimes when I feel like that it's not based in reality. I'm not ever in someone else's marriage thinking, wow, I wish I had all of this. I'm mostly in someone else's marriage thinking, I'm so glad I have access to this and also my own apartment I can go home to, um, which is like having my version of, you know, it's the narrative versus the reality. And the thing is, there's, you know, those narratives are shiny and appealing. 

But like the reality of marriage, even for people in the strongest marriages is so disconnected from the narratives were presented about marriage that navigating Through that is the challenge of, you know, I would say the first decade of marriage and, and the loneliness of being in a relationship that's not fulfilling, particularly a relationship that culture reinforces as the most fulfilling choice you can make is complicated in very similar ways to what I talk about in terms of being happy and never seeing a good version of it out there.

When it's the flip, it's being, you know, unfulfilled when there's You know, so many versions of how it should be fulfilling out there. It's, you know, it's the disservice we're done by the stories we are told about how life should be lived. So I do think that in this is not just in this instance, but just in general, like real life is a very good antidote to this, uh, anxiety and depression.

Julia Winston: One thing I’ve noticed is that where you choose to live can really contribute to your experience as a single person. For me, living in proximity to others has been an important factor because being single can sometimes be lonely. 

Glynnis MacNicol: I live in New York City, which traditionally and anyone who's read Rebecca Traister’s all the single ladies book. She writes about this New York. Is a hub for single women traditionally, like long before sort of we had the financial or bodily agency to make these decisions primarily because the city itself functions a lot of times as a partner like you, there's the setup of apartment buildings, the fact the isolation that I would experience living on my own. Say in a suburb somewhere is deeply mitigated here by the fact I see like three people on the way to the elevator and like 100 more before I've crossed the street. So there's like a social interaction that alleviates isolation significantly. And I think when we talk about these life choices, um, I'm always careful to point that out.

Because when I am on book tour, I hear from people and they say, you know, I live, you know, just for example, You know, in a suburb of Minneapolis and I have my own house and it gets very lonely because my friends are married and I have to make dates with people. Like, what do you suggest? And I just think, I don't, I recognize why that is so difficult and why it can be so isolating and lonely because my life allows for me to have my own apartment and for me to live on my own without feeling isolated whatsoever. And that is one of the reasons I think we see, you know, more single women attracted to urban hubs is for, for that exact reason. 

Julia Winston: What's like the short version of the question to how you came to the choice of not wanting to have kids?

Glynnis MacNicol: I think right around 40, I recognize that I wasn't in partnership and that if I wanted to have Children, I'd be having them on my own. And I really had to look that in the face and. Think hard about did I want Children badly enough to have them on my own and take on all of the risks and financial precarity and and all the rest of it, um, to achieve that. And the answer was I didn't. And what I recognized was I was going to be okay without Children. 

That I can have a fulfilling, meaningful, satisfying life that I'm built for. Um, like I recognize that I'm built for the life I'm leading in ways that are pretty extraordinary. Uh, and I will be okay if Children are not a part of that. And I think that was really the conclusion I came to more than like, I don't want to have kids. It's that I don't want them enough to pursue them.

Julia Winston: But you do tend to play roles in other people's families as I've heard you mention and as I've read from some of your writing What roles do you play in other people's family units and what roles do they play in yours?

Glynnis MacNicol: I think early on in the case of some friends, it was, you know, literal, you know, support of showing up or just being involved or, you know, being present. I don't have any godchildren. I have, but it's a lot, but I'm Auntie Glynnis to a lot of people.

I really was intentional of wanting to establish myself as a person they could trust. And I think that that is really, and so, and I think that's true in the case of the kids that are older than me, is I have a trusting relationship with them where they feel able to come to me and talk to me.

I love having children in my life. Um I think that was one of the major issues I actually took with the JD Vance thing, was not like Childless Cat Ladies, which feels like so boring and like stale of criticism. It was more this idea of not being invested in the future if you don't have kids. And I thought, what a, what a limited, mean spirited way to think of how children benefit from being loved by many people. And also how I benefit from having many children to love and how much I enjoy it and how grateful I am for it. 

In the past summer, I've sort of like been in the worlds of two year olds and in the worlds of seven year olds and the worlds of 15 year olds and like getting to like, like live in all of those different worlds, which are so different from my own and so different from each other just feels like such a gift. It's like, and those are people are all of my family. 

Julia Winston: I know what you mean. I recently went to my friend's, uh, kid's fourth birthday party and it was chaotic. And there was, you know, a lot happening and she lost her keys and needed to get back in the house. And so I was like, Ooh, I'll go get your extra set of keys. And it felt so good to be able to offer that, you know, like I don't have that chaos in my life. So I was like, let me like, throw me in coach. I want to help. And like, that felt great. And I think…

Glynnis MacNicol: I think there's this also this idea that caretaking is only limited to being a parent as anybody who's been a full time caretaker, which I have for aging parents can tell you, like there's many forms of caretaking and caretaking is an act of love and sometimes it's awful. But you know, even those smaller things of like Let me care for you, and I don't want this to be my 24 hour role, but like there's joy in that It's lovely to care for people. That's just being a human being. 

Julia Winston: Glynnis has let go of any shame or disappointment that our culture wants her to feel about being single. And if you read her books you’ll see how much fun she has in her life and how much she loves the life she's built. 

Glynnis MacNicol: I take joy in my ability to move freely, it would be to understate it to a degree. I've said that, you know, sex is great and I enjoy it. And I hope that's the case for everyone having sex, but like. I wouldn't give up my bike for sex. If I had to choose between my bike and sex, I'd choose my bike every time. But my ability to move freely is so at the top of my list of absolute Fundamental core to who I am that every time I get on my bike, I feel like it's a ritual celebration.

Julia Winston: This sense of freedom is a big part of being single that we don’t talk about enough. I think it’s a really empowering part of the experience to have freedom in all areas of your life. I know the feeling of cruising down a hill on your bike, and that’s how i’ve felt at different points of being single. Even in moments of longing, that sense of freedom is so beautiful. But in order to feel truly free, you have to reach a level of comfort with being your own companion. 

Julia Winston: You know, one thing you do that you have experienced is this idea of being comfortable with yourself. How have you gotten there? What's been your journey to become more comfortable just being with you?

Glynnis MacNicol: I really think the number one, you know, challenge in life for everyone is coming to terms with who you are and accepting that it's like expanding so you fill your whole skin essentially. And for me, I think really turning around and confronting those things I was scared about or anxious about or angry about right around when I turned 40 and then having two parents die really was like, looking in the face, the choices I've made and and recognizing that they weren't an accident.

And then when you make them on purpose is, you know, you have a feeling of agency, but it's also responsibility. Like I'm choosing this life. I have to take what comes with it.  And I think it's just, it might, maybe it's just an age thing and sort of a continual, the fact I am a writer and I tend to write about personal issues means that I'm constantly having to sort of interrogate myself and why I'm doing certain things and, and come to terms with it. But I, you know, I know it feels good.

I'm enjoying the person that I am. And, um, Once I think the irony of sort of sliding off cultural narrative is it can be both punishing, but it can be both freeing too, because you're like, there's no, there's no path laid out here for me of how this is supposed to go. So I'm going to continue down the path of what makes me feel the best.

Julia Winston: One of the truest things we never hear is that every relationship we’ll have in our lives begins and ends with ourselves. 

The biggest gift I’ve received as someone who’s spent most of my life being single is the opportunity to cultivate an incredible relationship with myself. 

So this Valentine’s Day, I’m here to say: I love you, Julia. And for everyone listening, whether you’re single or partnered, I hope you love you, too. 

17 I Caregiving and Family Pt 2: The Realities of Caring For Children with Disabilities

Erica spent her childhood living with a disability and needing a lot of care from her mom. As an adult, she’s now the caretaker to two children with disabilities. In this episode, Erica talks about what she learned from her mom as a caregiver, the day to day realities of caring for children who need a lot of assistance and how that impacts her career, her marriage and her finances. 

Check out Erica’s newsletter at Caffeinated Caregivers.
The song featuring Erica’s musical saw was Solar Eclipse by Jenny Johnson.

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Episode transcript is below. Transcripts may not appear in their final form.
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Julia Winston: I'm Julia Winston and this is Refamulating.

In our last episode I introduced you to Kathleen Downes, a 31-year-old woman with cerebral palsy. Kathleen and I talked about how caregiving has impacted her life, especially when it comes to family dynamics because Kathleen receives a lot of care from her family. 

Kathleen Downes: My parents and I are very intertwined. And sometimes that's a scary thing because you have an outsized level of terror about what will happen when they die. 

Julia Winston: I learned so much from Kathleen about what it’s like to be a recipient of care and about how we treat people with disabilities in the United States. It’s important to talk about caregiving in the context of families, because most people can’t afford to pay for care, so family members often end up stepping up. In fact, 20% of all Americans are playing a caregiving role for a loved one, like an elder or someone with a disability. This topic is relevant for a lot of people.

So after talking to Kathleen, who receives care, I also wanted to talk to someone who is giving care, to learn about that side of the experience. Kathleen suggested I call her friend Erica. 

Kathleen Downes: So we actually met online because she runs a page called Caffeinated Caregivers that talks about, you know, caregiving issues. She has two children that are developmentally disabled. 

Erica Stearns: My name is Erica Stearns, and I am 39 years old, and I live in Southern Illinois.

Julia Winston: Erica has a particularly unique perspective because she has been on both sides of the caregiving equation. As a child she had a medical condition that required constant caregiving from her mom, and now she's a caregiver to her two kids, who both have disabilities that require constant medical care. 

Erica Stearns: To me, I've only ever known caregiving to be a form of love. I think it isn't often portrayed as that in today's society, but my entire life, love has repeatedly shown up in the form of care and as a parent, a very, having very unique parenting experience that intersects with being a caregiver on a daily basis. Caregiving is the way that I show my kids love, just one of the many ways, but a very important one.

Julia Winston: So today on Refamulating, we're going to hear Erica's story of receiving care as a child, and providing care as an adult. 

Erica Stearns: so I was born in the mid 80s with a condition that's considered a congenital birth defect where there essentially were holes throughout my airway and digestive system in really critical places. That unfortunately meant if I had ate or drank, that would go straight to my lungs, and it did, and that's how they found out that I had the diagnosis of non isolated tracheal esophageal fistula and atresia. And, you know, nowadays, medical technology has advance substantially. But in 1985, that diagnosis was terminal for many children. So for me, what that looked like was that I required the use of a tracheotomy and a G tube, until the age of 15. And I've had about 32 surgeries in my life.

Julia Winston: Erica’s G tube was a tube that ran directly into her stomach so she could get supplemental nutrition. Having a G tube meant that Erica didn't have a lot of independence as a child, she needed a lot of care. 

Erica Stearns: Unfortunately, in 1985, we didn't have the kind of systems we do today, nor the medical technology for someone like me to go home and live independently right away. So I spent a lot of time growing up in the hospital, especially if I needed any sort of mechanical ventilation. I had paralyzed vocal cords as well. So unlike seeing a child cry or hearing a child cry, my mom didn't have the luxury of those sounds. So she was really creative. She, I was a child who grew up with bells attached to my wrists and my little booties so that if I was making the movements of crying, she would at least be alerted.

Julia Winston: Erica’s mom was a caregiving role model for Erica. And one thing she thinks her mom did really well was build a big community around them.

Erica Stearns: So my family, my aunts, my uncles, my grandparents, they never really made me feel different or othered. This was just me. This was just my journey. I didn't really even know it to be different. I didn't really think of my life as being pitiful or tragic or really that different. I was celebrated as who I was.

Julia Winston: When Erica was 15, doctors were able to remove her trach tube, a device that was inserted into her windpipe to help her breath. 

Erica Stearns: That has not been the end of my medical and disability journey, but it did, have an interesting effect where it moved me from this category of being, very visibly disabled to being non visibly disabled. In fact, most people really don't know that I have a disability now until they hear me talk. And then, typically they assume one of two things, that I'm either a chronic smoker, or, which I'm not, or I have a cold. 

Julia Winston: When the trach tube was removed, Erica was able to live a different life than the one she’d known in childhood. She didn't need constant care anymore, so she gained more independence from her mother and other caregivers. But she wasn't free from her illness.

Erica Stearns: I think the scariest part for me is that they really don't know why my vocal cords are suddenly, working on their own because they were paralyzed, uh, the majority of my childhood. So they really don't have any idea how long that will sustain itself. So I remember at 15 being told, okay, we're going to do this surgery, but you do realize, like, you might have to have a trach again.So that's terrifying. And I think because I had this like weird, I don't know if I'm going to live for very long or if I'm going to have this voice for very long. It just really shaped my drive and my passion to first adventure and do as much as possible with my voice and with my life.

Julia Winston: Erica spent her 20s adventuring. She didn't finish college, instead she traveled, dated to have fun, not to settle down, and she leaned into her love of music. 

Erica Stearns: So I play the musical saw, I can play a number of instruments, but that is the instrument that, I really, grew to love and identify with because I like to call it, it's like my voice. It's the voice that I imagine I would sing with if I had not had paralyzed vocal cords. It's a very ethereal, feminine sound and I play it in such a way that I harmonize with either the other instruments and or the lead singer.

I got to play music and travel the country. music and art, it really led me to where I am today through music. I landed in Southern Illinois and I met my husband Randy and we fell in love through music and Star Trek and video games and It was like we had so much in common. We could just talk and laugh for hours and I really just, I found my best friend and then we decided to become parents and it was so exciting because You know, I thought, how cool would it be if our kid liked Star Trek and video games and music. What a cool kid that would be. That's like what you think in parenthood, right? Like what are our genes going to create? It's going to be this awesome combination of two amazing people, right? 

Julia Winston: Erica and her husband did get pregnant, and they were thrilled. But like many first time parents, she was also scared of what could go wrong. Her own experience of being born with a medical condition had her worried that something similar could happen to her child. 

Erica Stearns: And I remember at some point in our journey about midway in pregnancy, we had an ultrasound that came back indicating that our daughter might have a smaller head circumference than what was normal. And that obviously scared us, and we didn't really know what that meant. But in the follow up appointment, our doctor was like, she's down low in your cervix. It's, these measurements are not always accurate, so we'll just keep an eye on it. So we had some follow up appointments and towards the end of her pregnancy, that's when the doctor finally conveyed that the head size was not growing. She was falling off the charts. And when we asked, you know, what could we do to get more information and like, really prepare ourselves, we were told that it was just kind of too late to start preparing ourselves.

By the time You know, I was in my 36th week when he finally really sat us down and told us the reality of what was going on. 

Julia Winston: They didn't know it at the time, but Erica's daughter, Margot, would be born with a rare genetic condition that’s so rare there isn’t a clinical name for it. One of the symptoms is microcephaly, which means she was born with a much smaller head than what is typical for a newborn, which can cause seizures, delayed physical and mental abilities, and problems eating or swallowing. 

Erica Stearns: So when my daughter was born, I could tell instantly that something was wrong. And I think that is probably the worst feeling to have and one of the worst things to admit because I never want to put my daughter in the category of wrong. But that's what it felt like at the time. She didn't cry when she was born. She didn't have much tone or many reflexes. She was having seizures, really aggressive seizures, seizures so bad that she couldn't eat. And when I voiced those concerns and when I voiced the fact that I could recognize that these were seizures, I would say I was told, oh, don't worry. Those are normal newborn baby movements. And for 12 hours, I had to hear so many medical professionals go, Hmm, I don't know. Those just kind of look like normal newborn baby movements. But I knew. Something just primal that told me she's not okay. You need to fight for her. So fight I did, and it wasn't pretty.

Julia Winston: At one point, Erica’s daughter had a massive seizure when the doctor was checking on them. 

Erica Stearns: And from that point forward, things moved pretty quickly. We were sent to a different facility, sent to a different hospital, a more advanced hospital that was able to really support her and provide the type of testing and type of expertise that she needed. We also underwent genetic testing. She went through a lot of really invasive and painful testing to try to determine what the cause of her symptoms were. And we remained in that NICU life, is what they call it, for several months.

And eventually we were able to take our child home. And what that looked like was really learning so many things. being with her at the bedside every day in the NICU. Learning how to read the monitors, learning how to read her. learning to determine what is a seizure versus what is dystonia, learning how to feed her, because she didn't really have very strong oral suck or skills, learning how to love her. She had a lot of tubes and wires, and so just getting skin to skin time was really, it was challenging, but it was something we were motivated to do because we just wanted, we wanted her to know love.

Julia Winston: It would take Erica and her husband a year to learn about the ultra rare genetic condition that caused Margot’s microcephaly. During that year, they spent a lot of time with doctors searching for answers. And in between hospital visits, when they were at home, they started learning how to provide care for Margot.

Erica Stearns: At this point, we didn't really know what Margot had because her genetic testing came back, null. they couldn't really find anything. But we knew that in the world of genetics, I think we at this point, the current landscape might be three to five percent of what we know when it comes to what genetic mutations exist. And so by the time we went home, we were her experts. We still had a lot to learn, but we knew how to love her and how to support her. And we also knew, to some degree, that our care for her would have to evolve as she grew and changed and as her medical complexities, you know, manifested in different ways throughout her life, that we would have to really stay on top of that and, and continue to be her experts, which is somewhat ever evolving.

Julia Winston: When Margot was a little over a year old, Erica got pregnant again, which was a surprise. 

Erica Stearns: We were not totally ready to have a second child while still learning how to be the best parents for Margo, but we just went with it. We kind of felt like we always wanted to have multiple kids, so if we were going to do it, might as well be now. We also felt so scared, and we felt so afraid of people's opinions, and how people might perceive us as being irresponsible for bringing another child into the world, despite having a very medically complex child that required many resources. 

Julia Winston: They had a lot of worries about this second pregnancy. Like Erica said, she worried people would look at them as irresponsible, bringing another child into the world when their daughter already needed so much care and resources. They also worried about how they would juggle two kids when one already needed so much care. And of course, they worried this baby could be born with the same condition as Margo.

Erica Stearns: We did not know what we would do if we found out he had the same condition as Margo. We very much were comforted by the fact that we would have choices. Because we knew that Margo's care was so intense and that we were essentially unsupported. We had to leave our careers. We had to, I mean, we were living on so little financially and utilizing, you know, again, support and resources that we never imagined having to utilize. And also just witnessing Margot go through so much, I mean, so much. And her first year of life was so rocky, so many moments where she was life flighted to receive critical care. I just, we didn't know if it would be fair to put another child through that. And so having a choice gave us so much comfort.

Julia Winston: They had a choice because Erica and her husband live in Illinois, where abortion care was available to them. They didn't really want to share the news that they were pregnant until they had a full MRI done on the baby to see if its head was growing at a normal rate. 

Erica Stearns: Ultimately, we were told our child was healthy and that he didn't appear to have any of the same markers as Margo had, now that we knew a little bit more about Margo. And so we proceeded to carry our pregnancy to term. 

Julia Winston: Once they had those MRI results, they expected to have a totally different experience with the birth of their son. 

Erica Stearns: And we received the second shock of a lifetime, when he was born with the exact same presenting conditions. And to this day, I will tell you that I don't know what decision we would have made if we had found out that he had that condition when we were 20 weeks pregnant. I mean, I don't even know what options you have at that point. And I'm willing to take judgment for that, but I'd really ask people to put themselves in our shoes. Because we loved this child, and we loved him then. But we also saw how much pain our daughter was put through. And we had no idea how long she would live. And we had no idea if we could do this times two. It's so much. The number of doctor's appointments, the numbers of hospitalizations, the number of people it takes to care just for her, we didn't know how we would do that multiplied by two.

I can tell you now that I am so glad that Caratekus is who he is. That's my son, because he really brought so many answers with him because of him being born with the same exact presenting conditions. We were able to have researchers at Yale isolate their genes and determine where that genetic mutation spawned from, and because of that, we have answers for other families around the world. 

The other side of this is that Caratacus ended up not having to have as painful or traumatic or turbulent beginning of life because his sister had paved the way for him. And we knew what worked for her, so we didn't have to have a lot of the mystery trials and challenges.

And he's also taught us a lot about our kid's conditions. Many of the things that we thought were maybe developmental delays for Margo or a part of her medical condition, we learned it's actually just a part of her personality. She does not like to perform for people. She's not, overly emotional or expressive, she's actually quite serious. Our son, on the other hand, is a performer. He is overly expressive and actually brings out a different side of her. We've learned she's very protective of him and she's very much observant of what other people are doing to him.

Julia Winston: So now, Erica and her husband are caregivers to two medically complex children. And as we learned in our last episode with Kathleen, families who include people with disabilities don’t really get much help. The way it works in the US is that the family has to provide most of the care, and figure out a way to pay for all the medical needs. 

Erica's kids are now 8 and 6. Even though they've been able to learn more about the kids' rare genetic condition, they still need constant caretaking.

Julia Winston: What kind of care do they need? 

Erica Stearns: Margo and Karatakis, they require full care. So they are unable to live independently or eat independently. And at times they need a lot of respiratory support to breathe. So that looks like helping provide not only the daily hygiene care, such as bathing and feeding and changing, but it also means that in order to You know, get them into comfortable positions we are lifting and moving their bodies and utilizing different mobility aids to keep them comfortable and keep them in alignment and keep their bodies supported. It means that they require what we refer to as a cocktail of medications to keep their seizures at bay and to keep them healthy and to allow them break from seizure activities so that they can develop and enjoy the world. It requires constantly coordinating with medical teams, charting, keeping really meticulous notes on changes in their health status. It could be as simple as, were they very sleepy and did their respirations, decrease significantly to something more obvious such as they were having grand mal seizures or they were up all night puking.

So, yeah, it's kind of like having a field hospital in our home. So, we very much live with medical equipment as a part of our decor. We don't spend a lot of time outside of our home because we have found that it's just, really inaccessible to take a lot of those devices and our children out into the world that really isn't designed to support people who require a lot of technological support in order to live. And even like at a more basic level, living in Southern Illinois, the majority of places are not wheelchair accessible. The majority of places, in fact, I don't know of a single one in a two hour radius that has an adult size changing table for our children to just do what humans do regularly, which is use the restroom.

Julia Winston: And what kind of care will they need in the future?

Erica Stearns: There are no adults living with their rare disease. We've kind of always been told and under the impression that our children may not reach adulthood. At the very beginning of my daughter's life, we were told we would be lucky if she lived to see childhood. So, you know, it's just kind of been one step at a time and having grown up and really kind of survived against the odds, I Maybe that influenced me into really, like, not fully taking doctors seriously when they said things like that because, I mean, they said that about me. They said I'd never be able to talk or eat on my own or breathe on my own. And here I am doing those things. But I also have to acknowledge that, like, I'm very lucky and I don't have the same, cognitive disabilities, intellectual disabilities, physical disabilities as my children and, and we just don't know. So we just take one day at a time.

So, as a family, we've really kind of made priority in balancing their quality of life, and make our home as much of a fun place and an oasis as it can be, so that we don't feel like our kids are missing out on experiences that could be happening outside of our home, if that makes sense.

Julia Winston: How have you turned your house into an oasis? And what do you like to do

Erica Stearns: Yeah, so we actually, my husband and his father, they built, um, what we call our kids accessible wing on our house. So they have a room and a bathroom that was designed just for them and all of their needs. We also made it so that our kids had their own outdoor space where they could watch all the wildlife that tends to grace our forested property. My husband is an avid gardener, so we have a flower garden right outside of their windows, their bedroom windows, but we've also planted it in such a way that they can have easy access to the flower garden. And the flower garden brings so much too, right? We have caterpillars that get to crawl on their arms and butterflies and snakes and frogs and lizards. And my daughter absolutely hates this part, but we let them touch all those critters and just really kind of, you know, I guess replicate what I imagined Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs had. It's just cottagecore life. 

Julia Winston: Redesigning their house is just one thing Erica and her husband had to adjust in their lives to accommodate their kids' disabilities. They also had to reframe their expectations around what parenting and having a family would look like for them. 

Erica Stearns: I think we had imagined as musicians that we would have our kids out at concerts and we would be taking them to art shows and we would really be out there doing more creative community centric activities. And I think that has been a part of this journey that we have really grieved is that we just haven't been able to do that.

On one hand it's lack of accessibility in those spaces, but the other side of it is that a lot of times that kind of stimulation results in seizure activity and it really puts our kids at high risk for, you know, contracting. a virus or illness. And we've just learned over the years after our few attempts of doing things like that, it ended up resulting in prolonged hospitalizations. And again, touch and go moments where we Where our child's life really hung in the balance, and we decided that's not really worth it.

Julia Winston: When we come back, Erica opens up about finances. 

Julia Winston: I'm curious to hear a little bit about the financial realities of your life, having children with the disabilities that your children have. What are the financial implications for your family?

Erica Stearns: Yeah, I think this is an important, um, question and I think it's one that, many years ago I had a lot of shame surrounding it to answer because, again, our society really measures success based on things like material items and and honestly our income. So for a while, the fact that I was happy, so happy being a mom and so happy having my child at home and alive, I felt quite ashamed, like I had in some way failed because, I had to give up my career in order to care for my child. Unfortunately, we don't have a system where there's, you know, daycares who are equipped to care for children who have feeding pumps and seizures and, and really need extra one on one support.

My husband and I, we both came to a relationship with our own independent income and career paths, and that quickly had to change following the birth of our daughter. Um, my husband's job kept him traveling a little bit every day, pretty far from the home. And there were a couple of incidents in Margo's first year of life where we didn't know if she would live.

We had to rush her to the ER and I had to watch some pretty scary things happen, including her being sent off in a helicopter three hours away to a different hospital. And the fact that my husband could not be there with us in that moment was really, really hard on him. So, in order to be closer to home, he took a different job that was paid significantly less. And to him, that felt very much like a step down. But, As far as our lives were concerned, it was a step up. It allowed us to be closer. you know, He had a job that was more understanding of our family circumstances. 

Julia Winston: Not long after Margo’s birth, Erica found out her family qualified for Medicaid, which offered more caregiving coverage than their private insurance. Medicaid is for low income families. When they started their family they didn’t qualify because both Erica and her husband had jobs. But after Margot was born, Erica left her job to take care of Margot and they’d spent all their savings on medical bills.  

Erica Stearns: At one point following my daughter's NICU stay, I actually requested all the medical bills, and they were over a million dollars. And we were trying to figure out how we could manage this life financially, because Insurance, we knew was not going to cover everything that our daughter needed, but we had pretty good success with Medicaid. And while it is not ideal, there are definitely a lot of improvements that Medicaid needs to make. It did a lot to support her and us. 

Julia Winston: But there is a cost to that support. Medicaid is the best option because most private insurance companies will not cover all the care someone with a severe disability needs. They usually won’t even cover some of it. So Medicaid has the best coverage, but it’s exclusively for low income families. Which means families who are not low income have to choose to be poor so they can get the care they need. 

Erica Stearns: And, you know, that really put us in a bind because the alternative is me leaving my daughter in the care of someone who is not, at that point, was not, we didn't have things like home health nursing because, again, Medicaid provides home health nursing, so if I returned to work and made more money, then I would essentially lose the skilled nursing support that Allows me to even go to work and earn that money. So it was such a catch 22.

Julia Winston: Erica and her husband had a very clear line they couldn't cross. When their kids were first born, they couldn’t make more than around 45 thousand dollars a year to stay on Medicaid. So neither she or her husband could advance in a career or have a side hustle to save, or take themselves on a vacation. In the last few years, things have started to change for the better.

Erica Stearns: Fortunately in our state of Illinois, They were considered eligible for waiver status, which essentially meant that having a Medicaid waiver in the state of Illinois, they would not count the parent's income against my kid's eligibility. And that happened only, I think almost two and a half, three years ago now, and that was a really, I mean, that was a transformative moment because suddenly, because they were eligible for a program that didn't count our income against us, we were finally able to look at options like returning to our career and not living under the limitation of, a substantially limited income.

Julia Winston: Erica recognizes she is lucky because she lives in Illinois, a state that passed legislation creating this waiver program. But a lot of states don't have this waiver, and families have to stay poor to get their kids care. 

Erica Stearns: And some people might ask, well, why didn't you just go and get private insurance? And again, I want to remind them that most private insurance companies do not provide home health nursing. And that's really what our children needed. So the option was put my children in the care of an unskilled individual so that I could be away for eight hours a day to pay for a private insurance that as I know, very well does not cover the majority of the needs that my children have, or stay home and just learn to live with less.

We couldn't go off and buy a home. We couldn't go off and buy a new vehicle. We didn't really have the resources for that. We had to utilize not only Medicaid, but we utilized Social Security Income, which is another program that is so beneficial for not only families of kids with disabilities, but also people with disabilities. And yet it's a program that has not been updated in over 50 years. So 50 years ago, they decided that a family could have at least 2, 000 in assets, and that was pretty substantial for 50 years ago, you know? 

And this day and age, $2,000 is not enough enough of a security for families. $2,000 that asset limit includes things, not just what you hav e in your bank account, but if you have another vehicle, any other, you know, big tag item things that you might have, if you, even if you have a john boat, you know, they're going to count that as an asset. 

Julia Winston: The waiver meant they could make more money, have more assets, and still get Medicaid. Another thing that changed in Illinois in the last few years is that the state will pay a family member performing caregiving duties. These policy changes allowed Erica and her husband to re-evaluate their careers and caregiving situation.

Erica Stearns: My husband is a veterinary technician. And I was an optician and I ran a small eye doctor's office. We kind of went back to the drawing board and we both realized as caregivers, We were not the same people that we were at the beginning of our careers. We have learned so much. I often tell other caregivers, you can't unsee or unlearn what you now know. It's all a matter of figuring out how to use that in your life. And, and determine how you want to use that knowledge. For me, I decided I wanted to use that knowledge to help other caregivers.

For my husband, he decided he wanted to become a nurse, and the primary caregiver. That's kind of atypical for a lot of family dynamics, but my husband is a very, very nurturing person who is actually quite a natural caregiver. And I think moving from finding a vein on a chihuahua to finding a vein on a human is going to be pretty easy for him. So nursing kind of felt like the natural progression for him. And it meant that the care that we're doing overnight, the hours that we have available for nurses that we can't fill, he can get paid to fill those because we're already doing the work regardless.

Julia Winston: So he's being paid to care for your children.

Erica Stearns: he will, once he is complete in nursing school. There are some states that currently pay caregivers who don't even have a nursing degree. Unfortunately we live in a state that's not quite there yet.

Julia Winston: These kinds of policy changes not only give Erica's family a financial break, but it allows her and her husband to have lives outside of caregiving. With her husband as the full time caregiver, Erica wanted to spend more of her time doing advocacy work and interacting with more families like hers.

Erica Stearns: since becoming a caregiver, I've been very passionate about finding ways to help caregivers feel validated and normal in their experiences. And one way that I do that, I do this for the state of Illinois through a program that is designed to, provide care coordination services to children with medical or medically fragile and technology dependent. I get to interact with parents early on in their journey with caregiving and really welcome them to the community and give them what I like to think of as the holy grail of resources that I didn't necessarily get at the beginning of my journey. 

Julia Winston: She also created a website called Caffeinated Caregivers, where she and her collaborator Alyssa Nutile write about what it's like to receive care and share resources for caregivers. Being able to have time for her own passions is something she and her husband have tried to always make a priority. 

Erica Stearns: It's, and it's such a relief to have that as a parent because I don't always want to be a nurse. I don't always want to have to do what often feels like the painful or mean things to my kids.  So, having someone else come into our lives and give us that respite, give us that break from being the person to always do the medical stuff. The break where I just get to go downstairs and be mom. That is where home health has greatly improved our lives. Not only has it allowed us to play just the part of mom and dad while they're here.But we also get to do things outside of caregiving that help us to really re identify with ourselves because I firmly believe that our kids need that too. Our kids need to see who we are as people outside of caregiving so that they can have those examples of being people as well.

Julia Winston: When Erica was a child with a lot of medical needs, she remembers seeing her mom get lost in sewing projects, and how happy that  made her. 

Erica Stearns: She was doing it, any chance she got when, whenever she had a break from me, I'd sneak in the living room and I'd see her sewing and I'd see her in her zen. And now when I sew, I feel connected to her through that. So for my kids, when they see, uh, Me doing my work or they see their dad and me playing music or video gaming. We like to do that too. They get to see us in our zen, and maybe it will help them feel connected to us when they grow up to discover their own versions of that for themselves. It's hard to say, but I think that part of being a parent and a caregiver is really important to, to balance and include in your life.

Julia Winston: This season, we've been toying a little bit with the idea of utopia. We talked about it extensively in episode 11, challenging ourselves to imagine what life could look like if we focused more on fulfillment than achievements. When you really step back and dare to dream, what’s your ideal way to live? To parent? So I asked Erica, what would her ideal, utopian, version of care look like? 

Julia Winston: If you could dream of a world where life was easier and where you think life was better for people who are in positions where they're giving and receiving care, what would you want to see be?

Erica Stearns: An ideal world for my family and for me it would be the elimination of barriers and total access to things like health care and support. And I don't just mean Healthcare support, I mean, actual physical, emotional, mental support as well.

Throughout history, we have moved from a very communal society to one that is very individualized, and yet our healthcare system has moved towards the concept of community care. So, Everything about healthcare now is really focused on getting the patient out of the hospital and back into their community, and that's great in theory, but it's absolutely unrealistic in practicality, in reality, because when you go into their community, There are so little resources and financial support or financial incentive for someone in your community to step into your lives and help you to provide that community care. 

I think there's a very big misunderstanding and gap between medical professionals and the hospital, really supporting you and teaching you how to be a support provider and caregiver and then sending you home and just essentially being like, okay, figure it out, figure it out without any compensation, figure it out without any, anyone to give you a break.

Julia Winston: Utopia for Erica also looks like more people caring about caregiving.

Erica Stearns: Evelyn Carter. jimmy Carter's wife. Right? Fact check me. 

Julia Winston: Her name is Rosalyn Carter and she was a staunch supporter of caregivers.

Erica Stearns: she said it best when she said that, you know, Everyone, at one point in their life, will either be a caregiver or a recipient of care. And I don't think any one of us really take that into account until we are forced to. And then that experience tends to really shape you to the extent that you look at life and systems differently. Whether it is you're caring for a parent, or you're caring for your child, or you're receiving care yourself. And I would ask our listeners to not wait until that moment to really start thinking about the concept of care, giving or receiving, and how it impacts, or could impact you, or is impacting your neighbor, or your family member, or your friend. And ask, ask those people in your lives, if you have them, what you can do. It might just be as simple as a phone call to your local legislator. It might be a meal. It might be, hang out with me and have a glass of wine and let's not talk about it at all. It might be, don't view me as a person who needs care, just view me as me.

16 I Caregiving and Family Pt 1: What It's Really Like To Receive Long-Term Care When You Have a Disability

In this episode we meet Kathleen Downes- a 31-year-old woman who lives with her parents and dog in New York. Kathleen has cerebral palsy, which means she needs constant care to do daily activities. Kathleen talks about the complicated relationship between care recipients and their families, the broken policies that force impossible choices, and the radical act of finding joy despite a system designed for isolation.

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Episode transcript is below. Transcripts may not appear in their final form.
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Julia Winston: I’m Julia Winston and this is Refamulating, a show that explores different ways to make a family.

When we started planning this season, we knew we wanted to do a story on caregiving. A friend who had been a caregiver to her father suggested it, and we liked the idea since so many families deal with caregiving at one point or another. 

Our original idea for this episode was to feature what it's like to provide care for a family member. That’s what we were looking for when we did a call out on social media. 

Kathleen Downes: I am a 31-year-old lifelong care recipient with cerebral palsy. I have always needed near total assistance with all activities of daily living. 

Julia Winston: This is Kathleen Downes. She lives in Floral Park, outside of New York City, and she emailed us after seeing our Instagram post looking for people who deal with caregiving. 

Kathleen Downes:I saw on IG that you were looking to talk about how caregiving shapes families. I rarely, if ever, see care recipient narratives told although needing care shapes my every relationship both with my family and my paid caregivers. All of my ideas about what a family can look like for me are also shaped by this reality given that I can’t marry or cohabitate without risking the benefits that fund my care.

Julia Winston: When we heard from Kathleen, we realized how important it is to center the experience of receiving care, as well.

Most of us avoid the topic of caregiving. Think about it, when you picture your life's last chapter, what do you imagine? Is it you and your partner, gray-haired and holding hands on your front porch? Or maybe it's living in a fabulous house with all your closest friends, trading jokes like the Golden Girls. Few of us imagine spending years with limited mobility and depending on others to make sure we eat and use the bathroom. 

It feels scary, but here's the thing – if we're blessed with a life full of deep connections, giving and receiving CARE is going to be part of our story. And not just in our later years – it shows up throughout our lives in all sorts of ways. Sometimes it's the care we expect, like having a baby or helping aging parents. Sometimes it's unexpected – an accident, an illness, a child who needs extra support. This is all just part of being human, we all have bodies that will eventually break down. When it comes to giving and receiving care, it's not a question of if, but when and how.

Right now, one in five adults in the United States is caring for a loved one – that's 20% of us stepping into a role that nobody feels totally prepared for, but one that represents some of the deepest expressions of love we can offer each other. 

Another reality of caregiving is it often falls on family members to do it. It’s expensive and logistically difficult for most people to get outside help, so caregiving often ends up having a massive impact on family dynamics.

Kathleen Downes: we have a real culture of fear and disdain towards needing help with things, especially in America. And there was sort of that realization that I represent, some people's worst fear for themselves.

Julia Winston: Today's story looks at caregiving from a perspective we don't often hear – what it's like to be on the receiving end. As you listen, I invite you to notice your own reactions. Where do you feel resistance? What makes you uncomfortable? Because let's be honest – caregiving can be scary to think about. 

But when we open up these conversations, when we make space for all kinds of care stories to be told, we're doing more than just sharing experiences. We're helping build a society that's more honest about what it means to care for each other, and maybe even one that's better equipped to support us all when we need it most. 

Kathleen Downes: I have a brain injury that occurred at some point in utero. So Basically, cerebral palsy is the functional consequence of that brain injury. the communication between my brain and the rest of my body is, you know, not wired correctly. I have very limited movement. Um, And I have a lot of spasticity, meaning that all of my muscles are unnaturally tight.

Julia Winston: For Kathleen, this muscle tightness means she often feels like she's fighting against herself. Because of that she mostly moves around in a power wheelchair and needs help doing most physical activities. 

Kathleen Downes: So getting dressed, going to the bathroom, taking a shower, setting up food. Um, I have some use of my hands, but not enough to, um, you know, complete most tasks independently. the CP, it's been a huge shaping factor in the person that I became. So I don't. I don't really see my CP as a, um, you know, as a positive or a negative. It's just something that is, like, you know, like my hair color or whatever. Obviously it has a much bigger impact on my life than my hair color and it shapes everything. But it's not something that I see myself as battling against or, you know, an opponent of any kind. 

Julia Winston: This is Kathleen’s relationship with her disability. And I wanted to know, what was her relationship like with her family? 

Kathleen Downes: I live with my mom and my dad and then I have an identical twin sister whose name is actually Claire, um, and she lives in Manhattan, and I have Um, and an older sister. She lives outside of New Orleans in Louisiana. 

Julia Winston: What have your relationships with your siblings been like through the years when it comes caretaking and the roles they've played or just in general,

Kathleen Downes: They never provided much physical care to me growing up. I don't think my parents ever wanted them to feel like they had to be the physical caregiver. But having a twin is a lot of fun, and contrary to what a lot of people think in, in popular culture, I'm sorry to say that we don't have   . but it's also hard sometimes because you're pretty much seeing an exact parallel life, like, she looks exactly like me, but walking. So it's complicated. 

It's hard sometimes to have somebody who's my exact age, but able bodied, and I want all the best things for her, and I want her to do all the things that she loves, and I want her to go get the job, get the apartment, get the cat, do everything, because she's the best. But at the same time, it's very difficult to know that she has her own apartment, and a job that pays enough to live on her own and she can travel on her own and choose where she wants to go. And knowing that there's only one thing preventing that from being the truth for me. And I'm sure she feels sad about that sometimes too. 

Julia Winston: I want to learn about your experience being the recipient of caregiving through different stages of your life. Starting when you were a child, did having a disability and needing care make you feel different? What was your relationship to these circumstances when you were a child?

Kathleen Downes: I've never known a life where I didn't need an extreme amount of help. So it's not like there was ever a time that I was completely independent. But when you're a little kid, it's less isolating because everybody is being taken care of by their parents.

And then when you start to hit like, you know, middle school especially, and people are starting to become physically independent and obviously they're dressing themselves, they're going to the bathroom on their own, they're doing all that on their own and you're not, that's sort of, I think one of the first big realizations that you, you're not like everybody else .

And at some point, My life really diverged from my able bodied peers because I still needed help with all the other things that they were able to do.

Julia Winston: What was Caregiving like for you when you were a child and then what was it like to receive care during puberty? And when you became a teenager.

Kathleen Downes: So when I was little, it was mostly my parents. Yeah, and then in elementary and high school, I had, like a one to one caregiver in school But when you're little, it's much easier to find people who will do it because you're physically easier to move. You're cute. you're not bothered as much by having a person glued to you. And then when you get older, when I hit high school, it's like I started to not want somebody attached to me because it really drives people away from talking to you. When you have, like, this adult just there all the time. The average tenth grader does not want to talk to you if you have, like, you know, a middle aged mom following you around and it's It's a real skill to just learn how to be a shadow and essentially act as a person's arms and legs without interfering with their ability to make choices, even if those choices are bad, without interfering in their conversations. but a lot of my aids in high school, they just didn't know how to do that. T hey would butt into my conversations or they would, you know, just be too there. 

Julia Winston: Kathleen and her parents struggled with the aides she had in high school. Some were too involved, but others were neglectful, leaving her alone so they could take a call or talk to other adults in the school. Some refused to lift her up and many just didn't give her the physical support she needed.

Kathleen Downes:Sometimes they just wouldn't even show up. which part of me loved because I would just sneak around on my own. But, you know, sometimes it was a real problem. It got to the point where I stopped drinking in school because I just wanted to dehydrate myself as much as possible cause it was just, I felt it was easier for everyone if I just didn't pee because it was like, well this person's gonna drop me, this person really doesn't want to do this. and it's just easier for everybody if I don't. So I would come home, like, enormously dehydrated. It was almost like an eating disorder, but with fluid.

Julia Winston: The aides at school were Kathleen's first experience in realizing just how much of her quality of life depended on the quality of the people taking care of her. So after high school, she wanted to go to college like other students. But she also knew she'd need constant care- which made the college search more specific.

Kathleen Downes: I knew when I graduated high school that I didn't want to the only visibly disabled person in the school anymore. It was too hard to do that again because everybody knew who I was, but nobody actually knew me. I always equated it with being like a mascot. It would be like, oh, everybody knew like, yeah, that girl in the wheelchair, but very few people meaningfully engaged with me.

Because even when I didn't have the aid on top of me anymore, when you need care, you just get left out of things. Because teenagers start driving on their own in inaccessible cars, and they don't want to wait for you, for your mom to drive you in your accessible van so you can meet up with them. And then, it's like, no, no, no, no.so I specifically sought out a college that was disability friendly, which is surprisingly difficult to find, especially for physical disability.

Julia Winston: Kathleen ended up enrolling at the University of Illinois at Champagne because it has a specific program for people with physical disabilities. One thing the program offered was accessible dorm rooms on the first floor.

Kathleen Downes: So we lived in a regular dorm with the other kids, but, but our floor was like wheelie land and the students could get a job to take care of us.  and all of a sudden my parents were 900 miles away, so if somebody didn't show up, it's not like I could just, you know, call them and have them take over. Um, And in retrospect, it was really, it was really selfless and courageous of my parents to let me go, because I know that it must've been hard for them to, to let go. Because sometimes there would be times where somebody didn't show up and I would have to find a sub at the last minute or somebody would abruptly tell me they were going home for the weekend and I needed to find coverage for the shift. 

It’s the hardest thing. I've ever done it , because it's like running a softball team while you're also going to school. It's like the eternal group project, except the group project never ends, and you, you are the group project. Like, if somebody doesn't show up the consequences you don't get out of your bed.

Julia Winston: Kind of like building a plane while in flight, these student caregivers were learning on the job as they took care of Kathleen and other students with disabilities. 

Kathleen Downes:  At one point when I was in college, I literally had to make a sign which I printed from my computer, Please wipe from front to back. Because a lot of people just did what was convenient for them based on the angle that they were standing at. And I get it, it's like, it's tough to hold a person up and use your other hand to, you know, really get in there. But, it's like, how many UTIs can I get, man? And they, especially the guys, they would be like, oh, it's front to back, I never thought about it before. 

And I think another skill of being a caregiver, you just, the best ones just melt into the background and only intervene when you ask them to. 

But some people Don't know how to do that at first, so I've had to work really hard to be up front about my expectations and be like, look if I come home and I am You know crying on the phone or something or Gossiping with one of my friends. If I want you to be part of it. I'll let you know

I was like I was at school with One of my student caregivers, the morning that my grandmother died, and it was just like, you, you, obviously you grieve like everybody else does, but I didn't get to do it with any degree of privacy, and I still had to move forward and take a shower. And normally in a situation like that, you would cry in the shower by yourself. But this person has to be with you and they're forced to be a witness sometimes to the worst moments of your life. And paid caregivers come in and out of your life, but they get weirdly, you know burned into certain memories.

Julia Winston: Kathleen studied social work in school, but never got a job that utilizes this degree. Because here’s the crazy thing… If Kathleen wanted to go get a job as a social worker, she would make too much money to qualify for Medicaid, which is how she currently pays for all her medical needs. And she also needs constant care, which is expensive if you’re hiring outside caregivers - too expensive for a social worker’s salary, and too expensive to be covered by Medicaid. It’s a catch 22. So the most optimal situation for Kathleen at this point is to not work, and to receive care from her parents.

In fact, right now Medicaid pays for a caregiver to come help Kathleen 35 hours a week. The rest of the time her parents, who are in their 60, do the caregiving.

Kathleen Downes: I feel that I will always be much more connected to my parents than I would have been otherwise because, I mean, I think needing help from them all the time has brought us closer and forced us to spend a lot more time together than we would have. 

My mom and I joke around, but we're not really kidding, that sometimes it's hard to know where I start and she ends and vice versa. And we're in such a routine that like, it's, it's almost robotic, like the way that she puts my shoes on. Nobody is ever going to do it as automatically or with as much attention to detail as she does. 

So I feel that, you know, my parents and I are very intertwined. And sometimes that's a scary thing because, you have an outsized level of terror about what will happen when they die. but at the same time, I feel grateful that we've gotten to be with each other in this way, and that I have a natural understanding that bodies are not infallible, and that we all need each other in some way. 

Julia Winston: Just like her relationship with her twin sister, Kathleen has complicated feelings about how much love and care her parents have given her throughout her life. 

Kathleen Downes: I feel tremendously guilty sometimes that they can't just go do the things that other people in their golden years are doing. And they've, they've never made me feel bad about that. But still, because of the culture that we live in everywhere around there's messaging that disabled people are burdens and it's hard not to internalize that and feel guilty sometimes.

But I certainly wish sometimes that it was easier for me to do things on my own and that my parents could do what they wanted and they could just be my parents without having to worry about who's doing what. my next shower, and they're getting older too, and there's going to come a point where they may need care of themselves.

And I struggle with knowing that I can't give that to them. So I always tell them I'll do their paperwork. I'll make their calls for them.

Julia Winston: Through her own experience and through connecting with other people with disabilities, Kathleen has learned a lot about the systems that support, or, frankly, don't support, people with disabilities.

Kathleen Downes: In this country, we don't treat these things as policy failures. We treat disability as like, oh, that's a you problem, and your mother will just continue to take care of you even if she's 95 until her heart stops beating. And it causes parents of kids with disabilities to feel like they can never die because the system has a lot of cracks in it. 

I wish the system would update itself to reflect that we are still here. I think it's very much formatted on old fashioned ideas that nobody with a disability was going to live for very long, or that, you know, that they would have no pursuits beyond sitting in their house with their parents and There's so many more opportunities for people with disabilities now, and we are living to the old, so the system needs to catch us. 

Julia Winston: In addition to being a licensed clinical social worker, Kathleen also has a certificate in patient advocacy. She spends a lot of time advocating for better policies and helping other people with disabilities navigate the complicated systems they rely on to get care.

Julia: What are some policy changes that would change your day to day life of past?

Kathleen Downes: So, right now, the only, like, ongoing funder of custodial care, so, Showering, bathing, hair brushing, going to the bathroom. All the things that you need to do to maintain a body. The only major funder for that is Medicaid. Private insurance does not cover that. Medicare does not cover that. So, it's Medicaid or it's out of pocket. And Medicaid requires you to be very poor. Like, not poverty line below it. and As a result, it affects your access to careers and to being able to, to have money for other things. And it, it sort of relies on the idea that your family will just provide for you financially forever. And I'm very fortunate that my parents are able to provide for me financially.But it doesn't feel good to have to be financially dependent on them because I'm in the care system.

The people who write these policies, they don't think it matters for us to have any pursuits besides just existing. So, I wish that Care services didn't have to be tied to Poverty. It's a strange thing to me To put an income cap on a disabled person and essentially punish them for the type of help that they need. If I chose to just say, fuck it, I'm going off Medicaid, I don't want to deal with this anymore, I would literally spend every cent I made on medical stuff, so it's like there's no point.

We've got no problem funding a A bunch of other things, even in the healthcare sphere, like if I tomorrow needed a surgery that cost 100, 000, they would likely pay for it, but if I approached them and said I need 100, 000 worth of 24 hour care, they would be like, LOL no, here's five hours and your aging mother can do the rest.

Julia Winston: Ok… this is just absolutely insane. Are we serious?? How can we allow our system to be so unreasonable and uncaring? We spend so much energy avoiding unpleasant topics like illness, injury and caregiving that we miss the chance to CARE about each other.  To create real change. To contemplate how we might build the kind of support networks and policies that could help people who need help simply live their everyday lives.

It goes without saying that Kathleen is extremely passionate about advocating for change, especially because the way it works now puts a ton of pressure on families. Kathleen’s parents have been physically and emotionally supporting her for most of her life. That takes a toll on them, but it also takes a toll on Kathleen. 

Kathleen Downes: We talk a lot about caregiver burnout. We do not talk about care recipient burnout. It is so stressful to need help with everything because you're constantly thinking about someone else besides yourself and am I hurting their back? Is it an inconvenience for them to drive me here? And then with the paid people, it's like you're always waiting for the other shoe to drop because these jobs unfortunately don't pay well, because again, not valued culturally. So you're just like, Oh God, please don't quit. Please don't quit. If I have to search for another person in six months, I'm going to scoop my eyeballs out because it is so much work to hire and train someone new.

And we talk a lot about the sandwich generation of caring for an elderly person and children and the, and you know, the woman caught in the middle of the sandwich, which is you know, I have an elderly grandmother and then my mom has me and she's in the sandwich. But what if you are one of the slices of bread? I don't think that people think about that it's hard for us too. And I think sometimes we  position the care recipient as burden to the caregiver, and we position the care recipient as feeling bad about needing all the help.

But what if we reframed as a, we're, we're all in the same struggle here. We've all been collectively failed by bad. policy. and at the root of all of it is ableism because when we don't value people with disabilities, we don't value the people who take care of them either. Because I think there's this resounding idea that our lives just have no value. Nor do the people who do the work of keeping us alive. 

Julia Winston: When you think about creating your own family and your future, what is possible and what isn't?

Kathleen Downes: Oh, see, that's a tough one. if I got married, I would lose Medicaid. because they count your assets together with whoever you marry. And I would also lose my cash benefit. So I know I can never get legally married. Which is, I know marriage isn't everything and you can still love someone without ever marrying them, but not having the choice is a sad thing. I have struggled with a hesitation around romantic relationships in general because there's always that question in your head, like, how does the care play into this? Like, if they're able bodied, they're going to have to adjust to these extra people, these caregivers being a big part of your life, and more than likely they're going to have to be comfortable giving physical care to you.

And then if you're with somebody who's disabled, it's like you can't provide care to each other, so you have to think about how to coordinate care for both of you, and there's, at least for me, there's, I've just always had this sense of, let me just isolate myself from this to protect myself, um, because just even, even diving into The dating world is incredibly complex when you need as much help as I do.

Julia Winston: I want to pause for a second and just name what’s happening here. Kathleen is  literally being forced to choose between having healthcare and having love in her life. And that's not a personal failing - that's our system actively pushing people into isolation, it’s a symptom of our epidemic of loneliness. We know that human connection is essential to human life and we live in a society that glorifies romantic love, yet we've built systems that actually punish people for seeking it out. That's not right, and it's not Kathleen who needs to change - it's these broken systems that need to change.  

And I would love to have my own children, but medically, I just don't think that it would be a safe thing for me. And I'm speaking for myself. I'm not at all speaking for all people with disabilities. Um, and also I'm so restricted financially that having my own kids just doesn't feel possible. So I've had to work really hard to nurture people in other ways, and I, I think you can totally have a fulfilled life without having your own kids, but again, policy has kind of made the choice for me. And I do grieve sometimes when I see other people my age that have their own house and three kids and all that. 

Julia Winston: The biggest question Kathleen has about her future is what will happen when her parents can't be her main caregivers anymore.

Kathleen Downes: I very much fear the day that my parents die. It's my biggest fear. And it's a hard thing knowing that your biggest fear is a certainty. But my mom always says that you will be okay because You're the best at all your administrative stuff, and you're a strong person, and people will help you. But it's scary because the systems that are supposed to help us, they don't always. And my older sister is chronically ill and not able to care for me physically.

And a lot of my friends are also disabled, and we're living with the same fears. We talk a lot about, okay, are we going to help each other? I'm so scared about all of It's scary winding up in a nursing home, but at least we'll be together. 

Julia Winston: These policies prevented her from accomplishing certain things an able bodied person could. But her life experiences have given her insights that most of us don't have because the world is designed for us and our bodies. 

Kathleen Downes: Culturally we're supposed to feel ashamed when a body can't do everything on its own, but That, that's the nature of a human body, especially over time. And again, this is very woo woo, but I sort of feel like I've already seen the truth. Nobody is really independent, and nobody's body works perfectly forever.

And it's really hard to develop like a positive sense of self when that's all around you, even if nobody says it to you directly. I resent when people say things like, Oh, if I wind up needing care that will be the loss of my dignity. Because they are implying that I don't have any dignity. It's true that if you have, you know, bad luck finding a good caregiver, they can put you in some undignified situations, but I don't think needing care itself is undignified.

I think the lack of support that Our government gives towards people who need care it certainly reinforces the idea that you don't matter very much and that the people who care for you don't matter very much either. So it's always felt like a mission of mine to be happy anyway. Uh, even when it's challenging.I think that's been the battle of my adult life, is trying to make peace with who I am. 

Julia Winston: It almost seems like an, an act of, uh, like a radical act to be joyful.

Kathleen Downes: Yeah, it's like, of course I have my moments where I wish I could do more on my own. But the truth is that most of the time I'm a generally happy person. I think that this is probably part of my purpose.

A lot of people are, oh you'd still be the same person if you weren't disabled. Really? Uh, I don't, I don't think so. It changed the kind of life I could have. It changed the kind of life that my parents and my family could have. It, it changed, it shaped everything that I am and that I'm going to be.

It's very much a mixed blessing. For all of the things that it's made hard and challenging for me, I think there's also been a million good things. I think I'm probably a way more empathetic person than I would have been. I certainly wouldn't have all this nerdy interest in policy if I wasn't disabled. For all I know, if I wasn't disabled, I could be in, into something that would horrify me in my present life, like football.

Julia: laughing, 

Kathleen Downes: And I've always felt that disability brings me much closer to the truth of life, that Everybody needs each other in some way. The whole idea of independence as a concept, it's false. It's a myth. Um, we, we sell it to people, especially in America as like, you are the pinnacle of success if you're independent, but everybody is interdependent.

Also being in disability world, you see how fragile life is. I have a lot of friends that, because of circumstances around their disability, have not gotten to live for a very long time. I have to be accepting of that and be joyful anyway, which I feel like is a nice hearty fuck you to the long term care system because they don't want you to be happy. and they don't think you can be.   I think it is my mission to be joyful anyway, and that doesn't mean you're happy all the time, but it is You still have a worthy life.

Julia Winston: Kathleen's story challenges us to face a truth we often avoid: care connects us all. What if we saw care not as a burden, but as a bridge between us? What becomes possible when we stop fearing dependence and start embracing our interconnectedness?

As millions of baby boomers age into needing care, these questions will become more urgent for all of us. But perhaps instead of seeing this as a crisis, we can view it as an invitation - to reimagine how we support each other and to reshape how we think about care. Not as a loss of dignity, but as one of the deepest expressions of our shared humanity. Or you could be like Kathleen and treat it like a big FUCK YOU to the system! at the very least – a fuck you to the long term care system. 

By having these conversations now, by hearing stories like Kathleen's, we can begin building the kind of society that honors both caregivers and care recipients. Because, let’s get real - ultimately, most of us will be both.

15: Family Preservation in Foster Care: Building a bridge between two families through radical compassion

Aaliyah and Jamyla have three moms - their birth mother Nicole, their foster mom (soon to be adopted mom) Chalice, and Chalice's fiancée Rachel. Chalice and the girls met eight years ago when the girls needed a foster parent. In the eight years they’ve known each other, Aaliyah and Jamyla have learned how hearts can expand to love many parents in their blended family. 

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Episode transcript is below. Transcripts may not appear in their final form.
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Julia Winston: I’m Julia Winston and this is Refamulating, a podcast that explores different ways to make a family. 

Aaliyah and Jamyla are two sisters who live in Charleston, South Carolina.

Aaliyah: Hi, I'm Aaliyah and I'm 14 years old. 

I really love drawing. Like, it's so fun to do. And I also love reading, like on my free times and playing video games.  

Jamyla: I'm Jamyla and I'm 10 years old.

Jamyla: well at school I really like focusing on what the teacher says. But at home, I usually just spend a lot of time outside sometimes. I really like biking. And sometimes when I'm in the mood, I like coloring.  Um,  and I really like playing with my dogs. 

Julia Winston: In fact, when I asked them to describe their family, they started with the dogs..

Aaliyah: We have Wonder. She's, um, a golden doodle. And then we have Charlie.  His breed is… 

Jamyla: He's a Catan Catooli. 

Aaliyah: And then we just got a new puppy, and her name is Evie, and she's a husky, and   she's so cute.  

Jamyla: But she can be very, very wild. Yeah. 

Julia Winston: And…they have three moms. Two that they live with…

Jamyla: it's kind of hard because everybody is like saying, why do you have two white moms, or what happened to your other family or something like that. 

Julia Winston: And, yeah, what do you usually say when people ask you about, why do you have two moms? You know, what do you usually tell people?

Aaliyah: I usually like tell them like, my mom couldn't like take care of like all of us so she had to like Give us a safe place for us to live you know, 

Julia Winston: The girls’ live with Chalice and her fiancé, Rachel. These are the white moms Aalyiah referenced. But the woman who gave birth to them is Nicole. They call her Mommy Cole. 

Nine years ago, when Aaliyah was five years old, Nicole couldn’t care for her, so she entered the foster care system. A year later, Chalice became Aaliyah’s caretaker and has been ever since. Not long after that, her sister Jamyla joined her to live with Chalice. 

Today we’re going to tell the story of how Chalice and the girls became a family, and the bridge they’ve built between this family they’re creating and the family the girls came from.  

Just a note- that Nicole was not available to do an interview, so we will be hearing the story from Chalice, Aaliya and Jamyla’s perspectives. But as you’ll see, Nicole is a very important part of their lives. So we’ll be holding her experience with love, knowing that everyone’s voice matters.

Julia Winston: We’ll begin this story with Chalice, the girls’ second mom, who met them when they were placed in foster care. Chalice grew up in the South, and always imagined herself as a mom. 

Chalice: I was raised in the church, in a very conservative family, and so I just always assumed it would be me and a husband,and I would have biological children, many of them. I always wanted children. From my youngest memory, I remember thinking like, I think being a mom would be like the truest expression of who I am.

Julia Winston: When she was a kid, her aunt and uncle adopted two children from Romania, and Chalice formed a close bond with them. 

Chalice: watching them come home, needing so much repair and healing and watching my aunt and uncle walk with them and love them to life was really beautiful. And so I started to notice other adoptive families, whether it was in our church or in our community. And I think I was a young teenager when I was like, I think I'm going to adopt one day. And that was when I had very rose colored, like, Oh, I want, I too want to be a hero and take a little child who needs me and love them to life.

Julia Winston: And this idea of helping kids stuck with her. 

Chalice: I did a project on high school and the invisible children of Northern Uganda, and I really wanted to go to Uganda. I just felt like that's what I have to do. I have to go to Uganda and, um, help these child soldiers and these kids. So I, I did, when I was 21, I went to Uganda for about six months. But I went and worked at a special needs orphanage and  the kids were so Either scared of me or enthralled by me. And none of those things are helpful in a child healing and, um, from trauma. But when I would watch the Ugandan mamas, that's what they called them all, like the mamas or just the women who worked at the orphanage, they were so intuitive. They spoke their language. They made them feel at home. I mean, it, it was just so clear, like everything was right about Ugandan women caring for these children. And everything was weird about like white people coming in and out, um,  taking lots of pictures and trying to help these kids. And the biggest thing I learned in Uganda is that Africa does not need me.  And there are so many beautiful, restorative NGOs, you know, nonprofits, charity efforts that are happening there. And what they need is American support monetarily. Like they need money to keep going. They need resources. 

Julia Winston: Chalice also learned that she wanted to help children closer to home. So when she returned from Uganda in her early 20s, she moved to Alabama and signed up to provide respite care. What this means is that she helped foster parents by watching their kids for a day or weekend to give them a break. 

While Chalice was dipping her toe in the Alabama foster care system, her friend Joy was fostering children in Charleston. One of the kids who came to stay with Joy was Aaliyah. Aaliyah was in and out of Joy’s house for a year. It was during this time that Chalice met Aaliyah, when she was visiting Joy in Charleston for Easter.

After that, Chalice started checking on Aaliyah, asking Joy how she was doing and if she’d found a permanent place to live. This went on for a year.

Chalice: My friend Joy had actually just adopted two children. And so she was fostering Aaliyah, but she was realizing, uh, her needs are really beyond the scope of  me being able to care for her.

Julia Winston: One day, Joy asked Chalice if she’d consider caring for Aaliyah. It was a huge ask. Chalice was 24, single, and working as a full time nanny. But Chalice says she felt called to working with and caring for children. So…she considered it.

Some of us might not relate to this at all, because when we were 24 we were partying or traveling or throwing ourselves into a career. But Chalice calls herself a boring 24 year old, and says at the time she wanted to settle down. So moving to a new city to take care of a child felt right.

Before the move, Chalice talked to Nicole on the phone to learn more about why Aaliyah was removed from her home. In that conversation, Chalice learned Nicole has four kids. Aaliyah, Jamyla, and two boys. One of the boys is Jamyla’s twin. Chalice also learned that the Department of Social Services, or DSS, had gotten involved, and that all four kids had been in foster care at different points.  

Out of respect for Aaliya and Jamyla, we’re not going to share exactly why DSS got involved. All you need to know is that they were in a situation that was deemed unsafe. 

When Chalice spoke with Nicole on the phone, it became clear that Nicole needed help. She had four kids, mental health struggles, very little support, and felt like she was drowning. And she was asking for someone to help her by taking care of her oldest, Aaliyah.

Chalice: She was really, like, devastatingly honest about that. She's like I'm kind of done. All I knew was that, this woman is at her max. And for one reason or another, she doesn't feel like she can care for this kid.

Julia Winston: Chalice looked at this as a temporary situation, Nicole just needed help, and right now that meant giving Aaliyah somewhere safe to live. 

Chalice: What if I can care for Aaliyah for the next year while she goes through kindergarten and mom can stabilize and maybe get some support and some therapy or whatever she needs, and then maybe a reunification can happen.

When I became her caregiver, she was five years old. And man she's just the best little thing. She was like, she was funny. She was animated. She was like really, really sweet. Um, and those things are not typical of kids who have, you know, come fresh from a lot of trauma, but she was so dear. She had these big two, I got to show you a picture of these buck teeth, big old teeth that stuck out of her mouth. And I just thought she was perfect. She's so perfect.

Julia Winston: Aaliyah, what do you remember about being five and going to live with Chalice for the first time?

Aaliyah: I think that my other house that I like lived in, it was kind of like dark all the time. Like the windows were shut, the like, I don't know, the blinds were shut and everything. So it was like, we didn't get any light in the house. But like, I think when I came to Chalice's house, it was just so bright and welcoming. And I just felt like it was, I don't know. It just brought me to a good place.

Julia Winston: What did Chalice do to make you feel welcome and safe at her house? You talked about the light in the house. What else did you like?

Aaliyah: I think she knew what was going on at our other place. She was like, very comforting, and like, keeping us safe, and like, was saying like, how can we help you guys, and stuff like that. So she was like, she knew what was going on, so she just was, Like, I don't want anything ever happening to you guys like that again.

Chalice: You fight for the reunification. You fight for the family being back together. I even told her if Aaliyah comes back to live with you in a year, like I can still take her on the weekends, like whatever it, whatever it takes to like kind of make this work. The kid's fathers were gone. Her biological family, Nicole's family was pretty uninvolved. People need help. Like you don't have help. You don't have resources. 

Julia Winston: When Aaliyah first moved in, she needed to process some heavy stuff that had happened at her first house. 

Chalice: Aaliyah had very conscious, very recent memories and recollections of trauma. And so our first probably six months together were really, really sweet. It's a time I really treasure because over the course of the last nine years, as she's worked through different trauma, there have been seasons of rage and seasons of just deep, deep pain. Um, and we've been through so much together, but the first, the first six months, I really got to watch her kind of exhale and watch her nervous system like stabilize. 

And so I started to see her come alive and that's where it starts getting really tricky, right? It's like, I know in my heart, I am fighting for unification. I am fighting for unification and also This could not feel any more like my child, you know, like every maternal instinct is like, how do I care for you and love you? And prepare to release you like these two things don't go together. 

Julia Winston: That feeling was something Chalice wrestled with on and off for years. But most days, she was focused on everything she had to do to take care of Aaliyah. Chalice was just a 24-year old working as a nanny, and living far away from her parents, so now she needed to find some support as a single mom. She moved in with her friend Joy, the one who’d first fostered Aaliyah, and who had also adopted two children while fostering.

Chalice: And over the two years that we were with her, I think we had maybe 12 or 15 other kids come in and out that were technically under Joy's like legal care. We were kind of operating as one big family. That could go a lot of different ways, but it really worked for Aaliyah. And I think it created this safe place of getting to see all these other kids in unconventional, conventional, hard situations, you know, like it's not just me. I'm not the only one. There's so many kids in need of care and that looks like so many different things. And maybe we'd have a kid for a week or we'd have a kid for two months or a year.

Julia Winston: For 15 months, Chalice and Aaliyah figured out their routine together. Aaliyah would see her Mommy Cole and other siblings sporadically during this time. And then…something else happened at Nicole’s house. And Aaliyah’s sister, two year old Jamyla, needed a new home.

Chalice: For Aaliyah, she was doing some home visits on the weekends at that point. Right before Jamilah came to live with us there's some really unsafe, really tragic things that had happened on one of her home visits and so that's when DSS intervened and removed her sister as well and she came to live with us.

Aaliyah over the course of the first year that she was with me, we immediately got into a lot of counseling and different therapy modalities. And, she did have a really tough first year, but when Jamila came to live with us, like her eyes were brighter, she was breathing deeper. She immediately like took on this really, um, like beautiful caretaking role of Jamila and she was just at ease in a new way. The sisters being together, It was so good for both of them. It was everything that they needed given the really sad situation they were in of needing to be from their first mom.

And Jamyla was also very dear, but she had mastered the eye roll at two years old. She was unimpressed with everything about me. 

Julia Winston: Jamyla was only two, but she does remember what she felt in the first few years she lived with Chalice. 

Jamyla: When I went there, I was like, What is happening? Why am I here? And, I kind of missed my mom. But, I knew it would start being a little bit more safe around Chalice and stuff. Once I got used to being at my mom's house, Chalice, I kind of, I started really liking it there.

Julia Winston: Chalice was so happy to bring the sisters together, but she was also overwhelmed about having another kid. 

Chalice: Two was really scary. One to one is one thing, but being outnumbered, was scary. I Mean, Aaliyah had become my full time job. She was in multiple speech therapy, occupational therapy, cognitive behavioral therapy. Um, it felt like my full time job just to walk with this little girl towards healing and meeting all of her needs. 

And so Jamilah was two and a half, fairly nonverbal at that point. But, um, Jamyla, I think, like, God knows me well, like my favorite thing about life is laughing and like, My favorite people have a good sense of humor and Jamyla was so weird and hilarious that like, she just made it fun. Even when it was really chaotic. Um, like she was just odd in all the best ways. And I, to this day, I tell her you are so weird and wonderful. And it's like the highest compliment, like he's like spunky and confident and like full of so much personality. Again, it was the comic relief we needed as shit got really real with the court systems and with the whole next many years of Drama back and forth the court 

Julia Winston: So you were a very young person. And that's an age when a lot of adults are still figuring out how to be on their own and who they are. What was your experience of getting to know yourself and growing up, you know, as someone in your young 20s while parenting? And did you imagine that this was a long term situation or that it was temporary?

Chalice: All of my friends were wanting to get married and wanting to be in relationships and I couldn't really relate to that. But I wanted, like I said, more than anything to be a mom. And so when I got Aaliyah, I did feel like I am doing what I was made to do. And so it was really hard, but as soon as she came to live with me, I'm like, I had so much confusion when I was 18. I like went to college, found out college wasn't for me, But I kept feeling like none of this fits. I can't think of a degree that I want. I can't think of a, like, I can't think about what I want to do, but I love children and feel like called to, um, nurture children, um, specifically like children from hard places.

When I started mothering Aaliyah and caring for the other kids in our house, I just remember feeling this relief of like, Oh, I, like, I'm, I think I'm good at this. Like, I, I love this work. This is so fulfilling. It's so hard, but it's the right kind of hard, you know, like you can do a million hard things that just feel pointless. But when you're doing what you're made to do, the hard will feel like, okay, this is the right kind of hard.This is like the rightest thing I've ever done.

Julia Winston: One question I have about this whole time is what kind of financial support did you have? What was the situation that you were in that enabled you to support, you know to support not one but now two girls?

Chalice: Yeah. Oh, I did not expect this to be such like an emotional trigger, but, um, I worked full time as a nanny. Um, being a single mom is so hard. I never felt like we had enough. I think the first year with them, I made like $26,000. The next year I made like  $28,000, like slowly, very incrementally. But like, we were, I was definitely under the poverty line I had to turn in all my financials to DSS. So they saw but they were like, all right, good enough is good enough. Sounds like you can like put food on the table. We'll see you at our next check in. 

Julia Winston: And Chalice had no help from the state. She wasn't an official foster parent because she’d been connected to Aaliyah through a friend. She was considered a kinship placement, which is what they call it if someone like an aunt or grandma steps in. So she had to provide for Aaliyah and Jamayla all by herself. 

Chalice: That has been one of the hardest parts of my past nine years with the girls is constant hustle. I started as a nanny and then I did a nanny share to take on more kids. And so, um, I usually had between four and five kids with me every day, you know, from eight to five.

I would babysit in the evenings and take the girls with me and put them to sleep on the couch, wake them up at midnight when the parents got home. So, um, I was tired. I was tired. And I remember thinking like all throughout that journey with them and feeling like, Oh my gosh, can I, am I going to be able to like, is this sustainable? I just feel like, as I tell the story, I'm like moment of silence for Single parents, because the stress of the financial needs is pretty relentless. Um, and it feels miraculous that we've, we've made it like we've kept making it. 

Julia Winston: Chalice, Aaliyah and Jamyla learned a lot together as they created their family. The girls did tons of therapy. Some forms were related to their development, like speech therapy or occupational therapy. They also did therapy to process the traumas they experienced. 

Jamyla: It would kind of change my life when I went to therapy, because they just listened. The therapist would just listen and they wouldn't like get in a fight with you. They would just listen and that felt really good to know that someone was actually listening to you.

Aaliyah: I would say it really helped me to like Think about things that it's like not my fault, like of some of the things that's happened to me, and that like, I'm okay, and I'm in a really good place now.

Julia Winston: Chalice was also educating herself. She had to learn how to work with kids who had complex trauma.

Julia Winston: How did you educate yourself to be a foster parent. how did you educate yourself about the system that you were a part of and what your place was in that and how to support these girls through a transition that involved trauma?

Chalice: So a funny part of having ADHD is like, I am not interested in anything unless I'm interested in it. So I was really interested in this and so there was no Podcast, no book, no stone left unturned. Like advocating for Aaliyah and Jamyla became my full time job.

I knew they may or may not stay with me. The goal was reunification with their mom. If their mom can complete the treatment plan, then they will go back to live with her. And so that was the goal. But in the meantime, I was their mom and it became like my joy and my hyper focus to, um, find out what resources they needed.

Julia Winston: I do want to ask you about the transracial element here. The girls are black and you're white. Can you tell us how you've educated yourself and what you've learned about parenting kids of color and, you know, how have these dynamics played a part in your family?

Chalice: I have to be honest and say that like, I wish I knew what I knew now before I started parenting them, but I didn't. I had to learn with them. And I wish it did not take me parenting black children to see the reality of being black in America the way that I saw it. I hate that that's true, but that's my story. As I started raising Aaliyah, especially that first year, I just had to start leaning into, the black friends that I had and I needed to to learn not only how to care for something as seemingly like simple as her hair, but like, how do I care for this young black woman? We are growing up in the same place. But she is having a totally different lived experience than me. And I'm raising a child who I cannot prepare for certain realities that will be present in her life. 

Julia Winston: So Chalice was reading books and listening to podcasts, but she was also seeking out adult adoptees on social media. She wanted to hear directly from people of color who’d been adopted or lived with white people to learn how to best care for Aaliyah and Jamyla. 

She also realized she could only do so much as a white parent. So she leaned hard on her Black friends. 

Chalice: One of the sweetest years we had together was my friends, Erica and Desiree, who are both black, lived with us for a year and we all moved to this downtown apartment and it was the five of us and it was so cool to watch them like auntie, the girls. That was the pandemic year. All along I had been learning, but suddenly being the minority in my own house, it felt like the sacred space that I got to be a part of. They would have like jokes and interactions with the girls that I was kind of on the outside of. And that was cool to me, like to see the girls just have this like joy and comfortability in their blackness with these two black aunties that they lived with. 

Julia Winston: The girls have also had to navigate being in an interracial family. One challenge has been explaining visible differences to other kids. 

Aaliyah: Like at school, there's this one year when I was having like a really awful time. There's this girl and on my birthday, she was like saying, like, I think her birthday wishes to find her birth mom. I just ignored them. Cause it doesn't matter. It really doesn't matter what your family is.

Julia Winston: What does matter to Aaliyah is that she’s found love and support in Chalice. 

Aaliyah: She's been through those hard times with me. I don't know. It's just, she's really awesome and special. And even though she might not be the same color as me, I just love her so much.

Julia Winston: What do you love about her?

Aaliyah: She comforts me, when I'm going through a hard time. 

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Julia Winston: While Chalice and the girls were in therapy, learning together and trying to create a cohesive family unit, there was an elephant in the room. They still visited with their first mom, and reunification was possible if Nicole could meet certain goals laid out by the state. 

Julia Winston: I want to talk about the plan for unification with Aaliyah and Jamyla's mom. So tell me about the plan for reunification and the eventual custody agreement that you made with her. What was happening there?

Chalice: That was really tricky because that kept changing so many times. The hope was always Reunification. So we were back and forth to court for four years. It was every three months for four years. I Had this really felt like an impossible role sometimes my little one, Jamila is two, three years old, four years old. She is just kind of living in like, The beautiful oblivion of being a tiny kid, you know, she, she didn't have to hold quite as much.

But Aaliyah knew every time I was going to court. That is so much of the trauma of all of those years was how do you go to kindergarten, first grade, second grade, third grade? How do you like, Make friends and have a, like, childhood of vitality and joy when you're constantly holding, like, Where am I gonna be? Who is my mom, ultimately? What's happening next, what's coming and the tragic reality of foster care is like the court dates, especially I was preparing her for those things, but those things could happen at any time. I mean, in foster care, sometimes decisions are made in court and then sometimes decisions are made outside of court. 

Julia Winston: I know that you went back and forth for a long time to know, you know, where was home So Aaliyah, what was that like for you?

Aaliyah: I felt confused, but I also felt like kind of sad because it felt like I was going back to the same place, like dark, scary place. And it just brought some back, some dark memories and stuff like that. 

Julia Winston: Jamyla says it added a lot of uncertainty to her life. 

Jamyla: I found it really annoying sometimes and I felt like I felt I didn't really like going back and forth because like I just like staying at one place and then like moving slowly I don't really like I don't like busy things and I just thought it was kind of scary because like I sometimes I finally felt like good at one place And then I have to go to another place, which I didn't really like.

Julia Winston: The girls didn't always want to go back to Mommy Cole's house, but she was also their first mom. They loved her. So it was confusing sometimes. One of Chalice's jobs as their caretaker was to help them process these complicated feelings. 

Chalice: It's always been so important to me to frame Their mom's experience in a way that leads them to compassion. There's this part of them. Yeah. We want to go back to mom. We want to go back and live with mom. But then there's also like a, wait, they have a bad experience with her on a home visit. Now they don't want to, they don't want to. 

And that's tricky because you always want to also say like, you get to be angry and you get to be hurt and you don't have to forgive anybody unless you want to, but also keep a tender place open.

And I would say, here's the thing. Mom has a broken heart, something broke her heart. And we don't know what it was. We don't know how it happened. Um, we can make some guesses, but we don't know for sure. And mom acts this way or that way towards you because she has a broken heart and she never got the healing that she needed. So we're going to keep hoping that she gets that healing, but it's not you.

This is mom's broken heart. You're not the problem, you know? And so they kind of adapted that language and could frame like, Really hard interactions with her through, okay, that's not me. That's not my fault. That's mom's broken heart. Mom was not the only abuser in their life.And again, like some people have been really angry with me, even friends about my framing of this. But that is the only way I found to explain these things to kids. It's like big, evil monsters and perpetrators they weren't born like that. 

You know, you want to just like get on their side and be like, yeah, they're terrible. They're awful. And you should have never had to experience that. And I've had those moments, but it's like nobody dreams of growing up and abusing their kids. Nobody dreams of growing up and having their family torn apart. And so it's like something happened, many things happened and their hearts were broken and they didn't have someone step in and say like, what's happening to your heart? That must've really hurt. You know? Um, we don't know all of the things that happened.

Broken hearts are a really big deal. And our responsibility is to make sure that we keep pursuing healing for ourselves. Um, Because when you heal, then you get to be a healer to other people. And when you don't heal, you run a very high risk of hurting other people. So I feel like even now, as I'm talking to you, I'm not meaning to talk to you like a kid, but like, this was our language for so many years. 

Julia Winston: No, I'm so glad that you shared that. I mean, that specificity, it's just like radical compassion, like the deepest kind of healing work. 

Chalice: I was so committed to like, I am not the good guy and your mom's the bad guy, like that is not what this is. I am the person who was given resources to be able to love you well and your mom was not given this. And so their mom did terrible things and would say terrible things to them and would say terrible things to me. But I think the beauty of having this obligation and this commitment to teaching radical compassion was that it forced me no matter what was said or done. It's like, I don't want to raise kids that sort good and bad people. I want to raise children that are emotionally intelligent and are able to see bad behavior and bad choices and think, I wonder what happened to you?

I do know specific incidences of things that have happened in their mom's life. Let me tell you who I would be if I lived her life. I would be her. I would not magically do things better if I was treated the way that she was treated and went through some of the medical trauma that she went through. And if I was a black woman raised in the South in Charleston, South Carolina, it's a lot of really intense, um, racial history and devastation and inequity, obviously. Like if I was her and I was raised that way. This is what would have happened, but I wasn't. I was raised in a stable, loving, loving family. Mostly a little bit jacked up Christian family situation, but I had resources and I had tools and I had materials and I had people and I had books and I had opportunity for healing and I grabbed hold of that and that was not ever, ever anything that was within reach for her to grab hold of. So that is the difference.

Julia Winston: For four years, Chalice, the girls and Nicole were in and out of court trying to figure out a permanent custody situation. The two brothers, including Jamyla’s twin, were living with a different foster family, and the judge’s reunification plan gave Nicole the goal of getting all four kids back. 

Julia Winston: Tell us about the conversation with Nicole that led to you getting full time guardianship.

Chalice: our relationship over those four years was really up and down. And depending on the day I was either like, you know, thank you so much for all your help, or you're the reason my family's separated, which very understandable. And so it was really up and down and you know, she would confide in me and say, I don't think I can do this. DSS wants me to complete this parenting plan and get all these kids back. And that terrifies me. But if I say I can't, then, then I'm a terrible person. So, you know, she would be going along with the plan with DSS and then be telling me, like, I don't know how to do this. And so all along I would try and say you know, I'll be there with you as much as I can, but also like, I understand, cause I'm raising two of the four, we're both single moms, like, I don't, I don't know how you would do all four of these kids, but I can help as much as you're able and as much as you're willing to let me.

You can tell that she has not had a lot of people to trust. And I was probably the least likely person that she could trust in a lot of ways. Um, because out of my protection for the kids, I had to stand in opposition to her many times. She didn't know whether or not she could trust me, but my hope was that over all these years together that she could see that like, yes, I'm fighting for them, but I care deeply for you.

So a lot of conversations came up where I would say I'm willing to raise these girls and to do it with you. We live 10 minutes apart. I live on the side of the city and you're over here. And if you can try and be creative with me, like we can make this work. And that was just too scary for her for a long time. It was like, no, I can't do that. I can't do that. Which I understood. And so I would say, you don't have to, I don't have to adopt them. So we'd have these really honest conversations but then, you know, this person or that person would get in her ear and say, you know, that woman's just trying to take your kids from you or who gives up on their kids. She had a lot of shame from her family, which was really sad. And so the conversation went back and forth and back and forth and back and forth. it would keep coming down to was like, Nope, I need my kids back. I just got to get my kids back. 

Julia Winston: Four years into living together, Chalice, Aaliyah and Jamyla were back in court to talk about reuniting with Mommy Cole. 

Chalice: And she came to me, minutes before we went into court and was like, would you still be willing to raise the girls? And I was, Like shell shocked. I had initiated these conversations so many times. I couldn't have ever imagined her initiating the conversation.

I just said, yes. I don't know how to explain like the tumultuousness of all of these years. I think she really believed, I think Chalice is going to do what she says she's going to do, which is like not take the kids away from me, but provide a safe space for them to grow up where I can still be their mom. 

So that day in court, in front of the judge, she told the judge Change the whole plan. All the caseworkers, the guardian ad litem, everyone's looking around like, what is happening? And she tells the judge like, I'd really like to give it a try with the boys and see if I can be successful with them and the girls are doing really well with Chalice. And so I'd like for Chalice to keep them with, legal and physical custody, not an adoption arrangement. Her parental rights would stay intact. She would hold the right to visit. She would, she holds a lot of rights with her parental rights intact, but they would live with me and she was voluntarily giving legal and physical custody, which was crazy and amazing.

Julia Winston: What was it like to tell the girls?

Chalice: I have a picture of when I went and told Aaliyah. She just like leapt into my arms and it was so beautiful because it wasn't I won in court. It was, let me tell you what your mom's idea was. Your mom loves you so much and knows that you're doing really well and that life is good for you right now and she wants it to keep being good for you. And so your mom asked the judge if you guys could stay with me. And if we could keep being a family. 

Aaliyah: I remember when my mom told me I gave her a big hug and I squeezed her and I was like, mom, really, really? I was so excited. I just felt happy. It's like the best day ever

Julia Winston: how about you Jamyla?

Jamyla: I also felt really excited. Like to stay at one place and like stay somewhere more safe. At my Mommy Cole's house her house was really dark and I felt really scared sometimes And then when I found out I was like Yay, that's gonna be so fun. I felt good, like, that we wouldn't, like, be scared anymore, and we wouldn't, like, have to be, feel, like, anxious and sad. I felt like I was going to have a really fun time.

Julia: The girls and Chalice celebrated together that day, but they also had mixed feelings about what this decision meant. 

Aaliyah: I think that I felt like a little bit sad for my, um, brothers.

Jamyla:When I found out I, I was sad too for my brothers.

Julia: Their brothers were going to live with Nicole for the first time in a few years. 

Chalice: Cause they were with a foster family that we knew. Once they went back to live with mom, you know, that was a big transition for the boys. They had now been away from her for three years. so they had a lot of transitioning to do, and there was a lot of confusion. Where are our sisters? Why aren't our sisters coming back? You know, they thought that was the plan. So all along these like victories, there's like, you hold this heartbreak. My girls were celebrating, like, we get to stay at our school, we get to stay with, you know, this mom. Our life gets to stay the same, and the boys are grieving, and so we're having to be sensitive to that. 

Julia Winston: It's been four years since Chalice got legal and physical custody of the girls. In that time they've been able to settle into a new chapter of their lives, including all the complicated family dynamics that come with it. 

Chalice: I just have had to like make friends with awkward. With my own family of origin, like there are beautiful, wonderful times on family vacations, and there are times when you're like, Get out of my face. You're the worst person ever. I consider Nicole like an extension of that in a very real way. Like she makes me really mad sometimes and she cracks me up sometimes. And I'm so endeared by, you know, the little card that she sent or the new school outfit that she got for Jamila, like the ways that she's thoughtful. And I'm also really pissed off because she forgot this or that. And she certainly feels that way with me, you know, like I can be very intentional and inclusive. And then there was a mother's day that went by that I, I forgot, I forgot to reach out. And that was so painful and how could I, you know, and so that's very real. 

Julia Winston: How have the girls brothers and Nicole been sort of integrated at this point? What does the family look like?

Chalice: We had already over the past four years, as tumultuous as it was, we were doing Christmases together. We were doing birthdays together. we were hanging out, we were going and getting pizza. We were meeting at the park. We were, so I was establishing along the way, like, this is what it could look like. One of our favorite memories every year, thing we look forward to. I always host like a Christmas brunch in the morning. They come over, like we open our presents, do our thing. And then the boys and their mom and usually their mom's mom Would come over and we'd have a big feast. And that got really cool through the years because you know, the first year would be mom and the boys. And the second year was mom and grandma and the boys, and then their aunt and uncle would catch wind of it.

And there was one year, I think we had like 14 or 15 people from their biological family that just showed up because they heard there was going to be pancakes on Christmas morning. And so, yeah, that's been really, really special. Um, we always celebrate the twins birthday together and we'll have them over or we'll go to the pool or something.

We're in pretty constant communication. Um, and yeah, it's, it's, it's pretty unconventional. Like we, on the one hand, we're living these little separate lives, but there's an open door policy. They're always welcome here. They're always wanted here. And we get to go there too. We love going to their apartment and hanging out with them. Even after all of these years, it's beautiful and it's hard. It's beautiful because they know their mom and, and she can write them birthday cards and she can love them in the best way she knows how. And there are still very real scars from wrongs committed against them. And so we just keep going a day at a time. There are seasons when the girls are wide open to her love and, um, when Christmas morning is really special. And there are seasons when it's not that way. And that's in every family, right?

Julia Winston: So that was, I think that was two, two and a half years ago. How have things felt different?

Aaliyah: well, obviously our family has grown like so much and Some family we've lost but like it's been Really happy to like see our family grow in different ways.

Julia Winston: How have you seen your family grow?

Aaliyah: um, our other mom, Rachel, our mom's fiance, , and I mean our dogs, obviously.

Julia Winston: Rachel was a big addition to the family. Chalice was single for a long time, focused on raising the girls. And Rachel was just a “really close friend”. 

Chalice: So all those really, really, really intense years felt that felt really solo. She kind of came in at the tail end of that and I just thought we were best friends, sisters. We have our whole crazy story of four years of repression and denial and all of this. It was mostly my denial and she, she knew what we were and she knew what we could be and she stood with us and she has loved those girls with everything she has and, now we all live together and it's wonderful. In the last couple months, even she's always been Ray Ray and both girls of their own have Uh called her they start calling her mama. So we're just a big mother trifecta. 

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Julia Winston: Tell me, tell me about when you met Rachel for the first time.

Aaliyah: Um, I think at first for me, since I've been with Chalice for a long time, I got the jealousy feeling that she was, she was going to like take her away or something like that. So I obviously felt really jealous. Jamyla felt like it was the best thing ever.

Jamyla: I felt like Rachel was really fun and she like did a lot. She was like understanding and it was really fun to have her around us. And I really liked her attitude.

Aaliyah: I think I want to share one more thing. Um, ever since, like, my mom is lesbian, she's, uh, queer. And, um, I would say there's, like, kind of a lot of people who just don't accept her for who she is. And it's just Like makes me frustrated because for me, I think it's the best thing ever. Like having two moms, like it just is amazing. And yeah,

Julia Winston: Yeah. What do you, what do you love about having two moms? 

 Aaliyah: I mean, both of them, they are very talented. Like my other mom, she like built my bed and she's so good at cooking. Like her food is just the best thing ever. And I think it's just like girl power around this house. Like, it's just amazing. And we can do whatever we want. Like it's girl power. 

Jamyla: It's like a, it's like a restaurant in our house. Like she can cook so good. And every night there's just a great meal for us.

Julia Winston: What's your favorite thing she cooks? 

Aaliyah: she makes these like bagels and they have like cream cheese in them and she puts like this rosemary thing on top of it and it's so good. So good. 

Chalice: It's a lot of frozen pizza before Ray Ray came.

Julia Winston: When Nicole voluntarily gave up her legal and physical rights over the girls, it did give them some permanency. But Chalice says even after that decision, Aaliyah wanted more. 

Chalice: Over the course of all of these years of back and forth to court, um, that really took a toll on Aaliyah, especially Aaliyah was always the oldest and the most cognizant of everything that was happening. She was constantly being interviewed by this caseworker and prepped by the guardian and light him about this and talk to with this therapist and that therapist. And so she, had to learn to hold Maybe this will happen. Maybe that will happen. Even as I told her, even as we were celebrating after court that I had custody in the back of her mind, she knew enough about the court system to know what custody can be changed. Custody placements aren't permanent. 

And so she never let go of the desire to be adopted. Since we were friends with so many foster families, she would see kids go through foster care and get adopted or kids go through foster care and get reunified and both of those are, you know, permanent situations. So that was always Aaliyah's deepest hope and dream was that she could be adopted.

Aaliyah: I think I just was like, okay, we need to stop going back and forth, back and forth and I think I just want it to be like, I want to have a life with her, you know, cause she's like a really special person and I want her to be there with me in my life.

Julia Winston: What made adoption the answer to you for that? Just to, to know that it was official. Like what was it that was important to you? 

Aaliyah: I think I just wanted people to know that like, she's my mom, you know, even though like I have a birth mom, I just wanted people to know that like, this is my mom and I'm proud of that. 

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Chalice: Over the course of the next couple of years, I would go to her mom and say, Hey, do you see how we're doing this? I'm not leaving Charleston. I'm not packing up the girls and taking off like. Would you reconsider adoption? And it was just absolutely not. No, no, no, no, no. And so Aaliyah and I kind of had this contingency plan that when she was 16, um, she could get emancipated or when she was 18, she could change her last name. That's kind of what we looked forward to is like these, this sense of permanency is so important to you.

And I've fought for that as much as I know how, um, but I, I can't do anything else except take their mom to court and try to terminate her rights was, was completely off the table. Like We had gotten to a point where I'm like, we will only do this peacefully or we won't do it at all. I would tell Leah, maybe when you're a little older, you can talk to mom. 

So she was 11 or 12 when she's like, I'm not waiting anymore. I'm talking to my mom and I'm like, I want to talk to my mom. I want to tell her I want to be adopted. Rachel and I and Aaliyah and her mom all sat down. And Aaliyah just said, Mom, I really love you. But I want Chalice. She said, Mom, I love you, but I want Mom to adopt me.

I really want to be a Howard. My last name's Howard. And her mom, again, just like that court day where it was like, no, no, no, no, no. She just looked at her and said, Is that what you want? And Aliyah said, It's what I really want. So she said, I can do that. I'm like, what? Like, what? I can't, it's like, even in telling the story, I cannot convey, like, The impossibility of that situation and how in the right time from the right voice from the non threatening voice of her daughter. I actually think it was really healing for, for Nicole that Aaliyah could come to her and say, this is something that I want. Can you do it for me? And she could say, yes, because she, Aaliyah had been hurt by her so many times and there have been major fractures in that relationship. 

I could see in Nicole's face when she said yes to Aaliyah. It was like one of the most deeply maternal moments I've ever seen. My child is coming to me asking me for this thing and it means that I have to step down and say yes for her good and the way that she, the ease that she said yes to that, it's like, I've always known that was in her, despite just the horrible, rotten, no good days I've known that there's care and love, and I saw that, and so she said yes.

Julia Winston: Two years later, the adoption still isn’t finalized because the girls’ birth fathers need to complete the process of signing over parental rights. 

Julia Winston:  When the adoption is finalized, you plan to change your last name to Howard tell me why you want that.

Aaliyah: I would say I'm not really like proud of my last name because it reminds me of my birth dad Who's in jail right now. And, um, he's like the one who keeps like trying to like stop the adoption or like try to hold it back. That's why it's taking like a long time for it to happen.

Julia Winston: what is it about sharing chalice's last name howard that's important to you?

Aaliyah: Our family, like the Howard family, they're like so kind, and like we just, I love them so much, I have so many awesome and wonderful cousins, I just like, I feel honored to share the last name.

Julia Winston: Jamyla also wants to be adopted by Chalice, but has a different plan for her name. She's going to hyphenate her current last name with Howard. 

Jamyla: My twin, um, Jamar, he has the same, he's going to have the same last name as me. He's really special to me. And I really felt like I really, I still wanted my, my last name. So I just hyphenated it because my birth family, are still very special to me and I really felt like I really wanted to keep their last name.

Julia Winston: The adoption will also allow Chalice and Rachel to focus on solidifying their roles in the family. 

Chalice: Once the adoption finalizes, Rachel and I will, can legally get married and we'll hopefully be getting married in the spring. Um, I would love for Nicole to be my maid of honor. Like I, there's nothing I could hope for more than that. I hold her in such a place of honor.

Julia Winston: When Chalice was younger, she looked up to her aunt and uncle who had adopted kids, found them inspirational. She saw the situation from the adults’ point of view, that they were helping kids who needed a new home. But she didn't always see it from her cousins' perspective, the adopted children, about what they’d lost. Now, Chalice sees the situation with a wider lens. 

Chalice: Part of the reason I wanted to tell my story is because I've met a lot of people who want to foster, adopt, or meet the girls and I, and think like, Oh, that would be so cool. And it's so important to me that people understand that by nature, adoption and foster care are birthed out of tragedy. It is not inherently beautiful that a child needs a different mother than the one that they were born from. It's devastating that for whatever reason, someone's not able to, to care for their child, especially because most of the time that is the desire of the parent, right?

I was this person at one time, thinking there's saving to do,and if we can start from the vantage point of like, wow, there was this family that existed apart from me and I'm being given the honor because of my resources to come in and to maybe help with some mending that is the vantage point that I hope that can start to shift. 

The work of foster care and adoption in my life and in my heart is family preservation. It is still my role as another mom to keep preserving this family unit, to keep drawing them back to each other, to keep helping them see each other. And so I hope that I hear that in the years to come as like more of a theme is really, being a bridge and not being a savior. Like these girls need their mom, their first mom. They need me too, but it has been out of my love for them that I fight for their relationship with their mom, um, because she deserves that and they deserve that.

Julia Winston: What advice would you give to other kids who are going to live with a new adult or guardian like you did?

Aaliyah: I would say that can be like hard sometimes, but it can also like, if you're coming through like a hard place in your life, it can be like, really like, joyful and exciting. don't know, just feels really safe. It's like a safe environment. 

Jamyla: Yeah, um, I, I really agree with Aaliyah too. When you're going to a new person, it can be really hard. But also, if person, if you think they're safe, then I think that could really change your life, and Be a lot more better for you

Julia Winston: What do kids need from adults in this kind of situation?

Aaliyah: Um, especially like need comfort because they're coming. They're probably coming through a hard, um, place. They also might need, um, I don't know, I don't know how to explain it. But, um, with Chalice, she like did a really good job. And she just like, I don't know, did her best that she could and like everything was good.

Jamyla: First of all, I think they need a lot of love and I think they really need to listen to them. And Like, if they're having a hard time, you should, like, say, like, what's wrong, like, can I help you? And, like, really try to help them, and make them feel comfort.

Julia Winston: Aaliyah, Jamyla and their moms have been refamulating for many years, and their story continues to evolve. Like all refamulating journeys, theirs is one of inner and outer transformation. The structure of their family is still changing on the outside, and the love inside each of them continues to grow and deepen.  For Chalice, becoming a mother has been the biggest transformation of all. 

Chalice: I love my life. Like, I love my life as the mother of these two girls. They are The best things that have ever happened to me.