15: Family Preservation in Foster Care: Building a bridge between two families through radical compassion

Aaliyah and Jamyla have three moms - their birth mother Nicole, their foster mom (soon to be adopted mom) Chalice, and Chalice's fiancée Rachel. Chalice and the girls met eight years ago when the girls needed a foster parent. In the eight years they’ve known each other, Aaliyah and Jamyla have learned how hearts can expand to love many parents in their blended family. 

__________________________________________________________

Episode transcript is below. Transcripts may not appear in their final form.
__________________________________________________________

Julia Winston: I’m Julia Winston and this is Refamulating, a podcast that explores different ways to make a family. 

Aaliyah and Jamyla are two sisters who live in Charleston, South Carolina.

Aaliyah: Hi, I'm Aaliyah and I'm 14 years old. 

I really love drawing. Like, it's so fun to do. And I also love reading, like on my free times and playing video games.  

Jamyla: I'm Jamyla and I'm 10 years old.

Jamyla: well at school I really like focusing on what the teacher says. But at home, I usually just spend a lot of time outside sometimes. I really like biking. And sometimes when I'm in the mood, I like coloring.  Um,  and I really like playing with my dogs. 

Julia Winston: In fact, when I asked them to describe their family, they started with the dogs..

Aaliyah: We have Wonder. She's, um, a golden doodle. And then we have Charlie.  His breed is… 

Jamyla: He's a Catan Catooli. 

Aaliyah: And then we just got a new puppy, and her name is Evie, and she's a husky, and   she's so cute.  

Jamyla: But she can be very, very wild. Yeah. 

Julia Winston: And…they have three moms. Two that they live with…

Jamyla: it's kind of hard because everybody is like saying, why do you have two white moms, or what happened to your other family or something like that. 

Julia Winston: And, yeah, what do you usually say when people ask you about, why do you have two moms? You know, what do you usually tell people?

Aaliyah: I usually like tell them like, my mom couldn't like take care of like all of us so she had to like Give us a safe place for us to live you know, 

Julia Winston: The girls’ live with Chalice and her fiancé, Rachel. These are the white moms Aalyiah referenced. But the woman who gave birth to them is Nicole. They call her Mommy Cole. 

Nine years ago, when Aaliyah was five years old, Nicole couldn’t care for her, so she entered the foster care system. A year later, Chalice became Aaliyah’s caretaker and has been ever since. Not long after that, her sister Jamyla joined her to live with Chalice. 

Today we’re going to tell the story of how Chalice and the girls became a family, and the bridge they’ve built between this family they’re creating and the family the girls came from.  

Just a note- that Nicole was not available to do an interview, so we will be hearing the story from Chalice, Aaliya and Jamyla’s perspectives. But as you’ll see, Nicole is a very important part of their lives. So we’ll be holding her experience with love, knowing that everyone’s voice matters.

Julia Winston: We’ll begin this story with Chalice, the girls’ second mom, who met them when they were placed in foster care. Chalice grew up in the South, and always imagined herself as a mom. 

Chalice: I was raised in the church, in a very conservative family, and so I just always assumed it would be me and a husband,and I would have biological children, many of them. I always wanted children. From my youngest memory, I remember thinking like, I think being a mom would be like the truest expression of who I am.

Julia Winston: When she was a kid, her aunt and uncle adopted two children from Romania, and Chalice formed a close bond with them. 

Chalice: watching them come home, needing so much repair and healing and watching my aunt and uncle walk with them and love them to life was really beautiful. And so I started to notice other adoptive families, whether it was in our church or in our community. And I think I was a young teenager when I was like, I think I'm going to adopt one day. And that was when I had very rose colored, like, Oh, I want, I too want to be a hero and take a little child who needs me and love them to life.

Julia Winston: And this idea of helping kids stuck with her. 

Chalice: I did a project on high school and the invisible children of Northern Uganda, and I really wanted to go to Uganda. I just felt like that's what I have to do. I have to go to Uganda and, um, help these child soldiers and these kids. So I, I did, when I was 21, I went to Uganda for about six months. But I went and worked at a special needs orphanage and  the kids were so Either scared of me or enthralled by me. And none of those things are helpful in a child healing and, um, from trauma. But when I would watch the Ugandan mamas, that's what they called them all, like the mamas or just the women who worked at the orphanage, they were so intuitive. They spoke their language. They made them feel at home. I mean, it, it was just so clear, like everything was right about Ugandan women caring for these children. And everything was weird about like white people coming in and out, um,  taking lots of pictures and trying to help these kids. And the biggest thing I learned in Uganda is that Africa does not need me.  And there are so many beautiful, restorative NGOs, you know, nonprofits, charity efforts that are happening there. And what they need is American support monetarily. Like they need money to keep going. They need resources. 

Julia Winston: Chalice also learned that she wanted to help children closer to home. So when she returned from Uganda in her early 20s, she moved to Alabama and signed up to provide respite care. What this means is that she helped foster parents by watching their kids for a day or weekend to give them a break. 

While Chalice was dipping her toe in the Alabama foster care system, her friend Joy was fostering children in Charleston. One of the kids who came to stay with Joy was Aaliyah. Aaliyah was in and out of Joy’s house for a year. It was during this time that Chalice met Aaliyah, when she was visiting Joy in Charleston for Easter.

After that, Chalice started checking on Aaliyah, asking Joy how she was doing and if she’d found a permanent place to live. This went on for a year.

Chalice: My friend Joy had actually just adopted two children. And so she was fostering Aaliyah, but she was realizing, uh, her needs are really beyond the scope of  me being able to care for her.

Julia Winston: One day, Joy asked Chalice if she’d consider caring for Aaliyah. It was a huge ask. Chalice was 24, single, and working as a full time nanny. But Chalice says she felt called to working with and caring for children. So…she considered it.

Some of us might not relate to this at all, because when we were 24 we were partying or traveling or throwing ourselves into a career. But Chalice calls herself a boring 24 year old, and says at the time she wanted to settle down. So moving to a new city to take care of a child felt right.

Before the move, Chalice talked to Nicole on the phone to learn more about why Aaliyah was removed from her home. In that conversation, Chalice learned Nicole has four kids. Aaliyah, Jamyla, and two boys. One of the boys is Jamyla’s twin. Chalice also learned that the Department of Social Services, or DSS, had gotten involved, and that all four kids had been in foster care at different points.  

Out of respect for Aaliya and Jamyla, we’re not going to share exactly why DSS got involved. All you need to know is that they were in a situation that was deemed unsafe. 

When Chalice spoke with Nicole on the phone, it became clear that Nicole needed help. She had four kids, mental health struggles, very little support, and felt like she was drowning. And she was asking for someone to help her by taking care of her oldest, Aaliyah.

Chalice: She was really, like, devastatingly honest about that. She's like I'm kind of done. All I knew was that, this woman is at her max. And for one reason or another, she doesn't feel like she can care for this kid.

Julia Winston: Chalice looked at this as a temporary situation, Nicole just needed help, and right now that meant giving Aaliyah somewhere safe to live. 

Chalice: What if I can care for Aaliyah for the next year while she goes through kindergarten and mom can stabilize and maybe get some support and some therapy or whatever she needs, and then maybe a reunification can happen.

When I became her caregiver, she was five years old. And man she's just the best little thing. She was like, she was funny. She was animated. She was like really, really sweet. Um, and those things are not typical of kids who have, you know, come fresh from a lot of trauma, but she was so dear. She had these big two, I got to show you a picture of these buck teeth, big old teeth that stuck out of her mouth. And I just thought she was perfect. She's so perfect.

Julia Winston: Aaliyah, what do you remember about being five and going to live with Chalice for the first time?

Aaliyah: I think that my other house that I like lived in, it was kind of like dark all the time. Like the windows were shut, the like, I don't know, the blinds were shut and everything. So it was like, we didn't get any light in the house. But like, I think when I came to Chalice's house, it was just so bright and welcoming. And I just felt like it was, I don't know. It just brought me to a good place.

Julia Winston: What did Chalice do to make you feel welcome and safe at her house? You talked about the light in the house. What else did you like?

Aaliyah: I think she knew what was going on at our other place. She was like, very comforting, and like, keeping us safe, and like, was saying like, how can we help you guys, and stuff like that. So she was like, she knew what was going on, so she just was, Like, I don't want anything ever happening to you guys like that again.

Chalice: You fight for the reunification. You fight for the family being back together. I even told her if Aaliyah comes back to live with you in a year, like I can still take her on the weekends, like whatever it, whatever it takes to like kind of make this work. The kid's fathers were gone. Her biological family, Nicole's family was pretty uninvolved. People need help. Like you don't have help. You don't have resources. 

Julia Winston: When Aaliyah first moved in, she needed to process some heavy stuff that had happened at her first house. 

Chalice: Aaliyah had very conscious, very recent memories and recollections of trauma. And so our first probably six months together were really, really sweet. It's a time I really treasure because over the course of the last nine years, as she's worked through different trauma, there have been seasons of rage and seasons of just deep, deep pain. Um, and we've been through so much together, but the first, the first six months, I really got to watch her kind of exhale and watch her nervous system like stabilize. 

And so I started to see her come alive and that's where it starts getting really tricky, right? It's like, I know in my heart, I am fighting for unification. I am fighting for unification and also This could not feel any more like my child, you know, like every maternal instinct is like, how do I care for you and love you? And prepare to release you like these two things don't go together. 

Julia Winston: That feeling was something Chalice wrestled with on and off for years. But most days, she was focused on everything she had to do to take care of Aaliyah. Chalice was just a 24-year old working as a nanny, and living far away from her parents, so now she needed to find some support as a single mom. She moved in with her friend Joy, the one who’d first fostered Aaliyah, and who had also adopted two children while fostering.

Chalice: And over the two years that we were with her, I think we had maybe 12 or 15 other kids come in and out that were technically under Joy's like legal care. We were kind of operating as one big family. That could go a lot of different ways, but it really worked for Aaliyah. And I think it created this safe place of getting to see all these other kids in unconventional, conventional, hard situations, you know, like it's not just me. I'm not the only one. There's so many kids in need of care and that looks like so many different things. And maybe we'd have a kid for a week or we'd have a kid for two months or a year.

Julia Winston: For 15 months, Chalice and Aaliyah figured out their routine together. Aaliyah would see her Mommy Cole and other siblings sporadically during this time. And then…something else happened at Nicole’s house. And Aaliyah’s sister, two year old Jamyla, needed a new home.

Chalice: For Aaliyah, she was doing some home visits on the weekends at that point. Right before Jamilah came to live with us there's some really unsafe, really tragic things that had happened on one of her home visits and so that's when DSS intervened and removed her sister as well and she came to live with us.

Aaliyah over the course of the first year that she was with me, we immediately got into a lot of counseling and different therapy modalities. And, she did have a really tough first year, but when Jamila came to live with us, like her eyes were brighter, she was breathing deeper. She immediately like took on this really, um, like beautiful caretaking role of Jamila and she was just at ease in a new way. The sisters being together, It was so good for both of them. It was everything that they needed given the really sad situation they were in of needing to be from their first mom.

And Jamyla was also very dear, but she had mastered the eye roll at two years old. She was unimpressed with everything about me. 

Julia Winston: Jamyla was only two, but she does remember what she felt in the first few years she lived with Chalice. 

Jamyla: When I went there, I was like, What is happening? Why am I here? And, I kind of missed my mom. But, I knew it would start being a little bit more safe around Chalice and stuff. Once I got used to being at my mom's house, Chalice, I kind of, I started really liking it there.

Julia Winston: Chalice was so happy to bring the sisters together, but she was also overwhelmed about having another kid. 

Chalice: Two was really scary. One to one is one thing, but being outnumbered, was scary. I Mean, Aaliyah had become my full time job. She was in multiple speech therapy, occupational therapy, cognitive behavioral therapy. Um, it felt like my full time job just to walk with this little girl towards healing and meeting all of her needs. 

And so Jamilah was two and a half, fairly nonverbal at that point. But, um, Jamyla, I think, like, God knows me well, like my favorite thing about life is laughing and like, My favorite people have a good sense of humor and Jamyla was so weird and hilarious that like, she just made it fun. Even when it was really chaotic. Um, like she was just odd in all the best ways. And I, to this day, I tell her you are so weird and wonderful. And it's like the highest compliment, like he's like spunky and confident and like full of so much personality. Again, it was the comic relief we needed as shit got really real with the court systems and with the whole next many years of Drama back and forth the court 

Julia Winston: So you were a very young person. And that's an age when a lot of adults are still figuring out how to be on their own and who they are. What was your experience of getting to know yourself and growing up, you know, as someone in your young 20s while parenting? And did you imagine that this was a long term situation or that it was temporary?

Chalice: All of my friends were wanting to get married and wanting to be in relationships and I couldn't really relate to that. But I wanted, like I said, more than anything to be a mom. And so when I got Aaliyah, I did feel like I am doing what I was made to do. And so it was really hard, but as soon as she came to live with me, I'm like, I had so much confusion when I was 18. I like went to college, found out college wasn't for me, But I kept feeling like none of this fits. I can't think of a degree that I want. I can't think of a, like, I can't think about what I want to do, but I love children and feel like called to, um, nurture children, um, specifically like children from hard places.

When I started mothering Aaliyah and caring for the other kids in our house, I just remember feeling this relief of like, Oh, I, like, I'm, I think I'm good at this. Like, I, I love this work. This is so fulfilling. It's so hard, but it's the right kind of hard, you know, like you can do a million hard things that just feel pointless. But when you're doing what you're made to do, the hard will feel like, okay, this is the right kind of hard.This is like the rightest thing I've ever done.

Julia Winston: One question I have about this whole time is what kind of financial support did you have? What was the situation that you were in that enabled you to support, you know to support not one but now two girls?

Chalice: Yeah. Oh, I did not expect this to be such like an emotional trigger, but, um, I worked full time as a nanny. Um, being a single mom is so hard. I never felt like we had enough. I think the first year with them, I made like $26,000. The next year I made like  $28,000, like slowly, very incrementally. But like, we were, I was definitely under the poverty line I had to turn in all my financials to DSS. So they saw but they were like, all right, good enough is good enough. Sounds like you can like put food on the table. We'll see you at our next check in. 

Julia Winston: And Chalice had no help from the state. She wasn't an official foster parent because she’d been connected to Aaliyah through a friend. She was considered a kinship placement, which is what they call it if someone like an aunt or grandma steps in. So she had to provide for Aaliyah and Jamayla all by herself. 

Chalice: That has been one of the hardest parts of my past nine years with the girls is constant hustle. I started as a nanny and then I did a nanny share to take on more kids. And so, um, I usually had between four and five kids with me every day, you know, from eight to five.

I would babysit in the evenings and take the girls with me and put them to sleep on the couch, wake them up at midnight when the parents got home. So, um, I was tired. I was tired. And I remember thinking like all throughout that journey with them and feeling like, Oh my gosh, can I, am I going to be able to like, is this sustainable? I just feel like, as I tell the story, I'm like moment of silence for Single parents, because the stress of the financial needs is pretty relentless. Um, and it feels miraculous that we've, we've made it like we've kept making it. 

Julia Winston: Chalice, Aaliyah and Jamyla learned a lot together as they created their family. The girls did tons of therapy. Some forms were related to their development, like speech therapy or occupational therapy. They also did therapy to process the traumas they experienced. 

Jamyla: It would kind of change my life when I went to therapy, because they just listened. The therapist would just listen and they wouldn't like get in a fight with you. They would just listen and that felt really good to know that someone was actually listening to you.

Aaliyah: I would say it really helped me to like Think about things that it's like not my fault, like of some of the things that's happened to me, and that like, I'm okay, and I'm in a really good place now.

Julia Winston: Chalice was also educating herself. She had to learn how to work with kids who had complex trauma.

Julia Winston: How did you educate yourself to be a foster parent. how did you educate yourself about the system that you were a part of and what your place was in that and how to support these girls through a transition that involved trauma?

Chalice: So a funny part of having ADHD is like, I am not interested in anything unless I'm interested in it. So I was really interested in this and so there was no Podcast, no book, no stone left unturned. Like advocating for Aaliyah and Jamyla became my full time job.

I knew they may or may not stay with me. The goal was reunification with their mom. If their mom can complete the treatment plan, then they will go back to live with her. And so that was the goal. But in the meantime, I was their mom and it became like my joy and my hyper focus to, um, find out what resources they needed.

Julia Winston: I do want to ask you about the transracial element here. The girls are black and you're white. Can you tell us how you've educated yourself and what you've learned about parenting kids of color and, you know, how have these dynamics played a part in your family?

Chalice: I have to be honest and say that like, I wish I knew what I knew now before I started parenting them, but I didn't. I had to learn with them. And I wish it did not take me parenting black children to see the reality of being black in America the way that I saw it. I hate that that's true, but that's my story. As I started raising Aaliyah, especially that first year, I just had to start leaning into, the black friends that I had and I needed to to learn not only how to care for something as seemingly like simple as her hair, but like, how do I care for this young black woman? We are growing up in the same place. But she is having a totally different lived experience than me. And I'm raising a child who I cannot prepare for certain realities that will be present in her life. 

Julia Winston: So Chalice was reading books and listening to podcasts, but she was also seeking out adult adoptees on social media. She wanted to hear directly from people of color who’d been adopted or lived with white people to learn how to best care for Aaliyah and Jamyla. 

She also realized she could only do so much as a white parent. So she leaned hard on her Black friends. 

Chalice: One of the sweetest years we had together was my friends, Erica and Desiree, who are both black, lived with us for a year and we all moved to this downtown apartment and it was the five of us and it was so cool to watch them like auntie, the girls. That was the pandemic year. All along I had been learning, but suddenly being the minority in my own house, it felt like the sacred space that I got to be a part of. They would have like jokes and interactions with the girls that I was kind of on the outside of. And that was cool to me, like to see the girls just have this like joy and comfortability in their blackness with these two black aunties that they lived with. 

Julia Winston: The girls have also had to navigate being in an interracial family. One challenge has been explaining visible differences to other kids. 

Aaliyah: Like at school, there's this one year when I was having like a really awful time. There's this girl and on my birthday, she was like saying, like, I think her birthday wishes to find her birth mom. I just ignored them. Cause it doesn't matter. It really doesn't matter what your family is.

Julia Winston: What does matter to Aaliyah is that she’s found love and support in Chalice. 

Aaliyah: She's been through those hard times with me. I don't know. It's just, she's really awesome and special. And even though she might not be the same color as me, I just love her so much.

Julia Winston: What do you love about her?

Aaliyah: She comforts me, when I'm going through a hard time. 

music 

Julia Winston: While Chalice and the girls were in therapy, learning together and trying to create a cohesive family unit, there was an elephant in the room. They still visited with their first mom, and reunification was possible if Nicole could meet certain goals laid out by the state. 

Julia Winston: I want to talk about the plan for unification with Aaliyah and Jamyla's mom. So tell me about the plan for reunification and the eventual custody agreement that you made with her. What was happening there?

Chalice: That was really tricky because that kept changing so many times. The hope was always Reunification. So we were back and forth to court for four years. It was every three months for four years. I Had this really felt like an impossible role sometimes my little one, Jamila is two, three years old, four years old. She is just kind of living in like, The beautiful oblivion of being a tiny kid, you know, she, she didn't have to hold quite as much.

But Aaliyah knew every time I was going to court. That is so much of the trauma of all of those years was how do you go to kindergarten, first grade, second grade, third grade? How do you like, Make friends and have a, like, childhood of vitality and joy when you're constantly holding, like, Where am I gonna be? Who is my mom, ultimately? What's happening next, what's coming and the tragic reality of foster care is like the court dates, especially I was preparing her for those things, but those things could happen at any time. I mean, in foster care, sometimes decisions are made in court and then sometimes decisions are made outside of court. 

Julia Winston: I know that you went back and forth for a long time to know, you know, where was home So Aaliyah, what was that like for you?

Aaliyah: I felt confused, but I also felt like kind of sad because it felt like I was going back to the same place, like dark, scary place. And it just brought some back, some dark memories and stuff like that. 

Julia Winston: Jamyla says it added a lot of uncertainty to her life. 

Jamyla: I found it really annoying sometimes and I felt like I felt I didn't really like going back and forth because like I just like staying at one place and then like moving slowly I don't really like I don't like busy things and I just thought it was kind of scary because like I sometimes I finally felt like good at one place And then I have to go to another place, which I didn't really like.

Julia Winston: The girls didn't always want to go back to Mommy Cole's house, but she was also their first mom. They loved her. So it was confusing sometimes. One of Chalice's jobs as their caretaker was to help them process these complicated feelings. 

Chalice: It's always been so important to me to frame Their mom's experience in a way that leads them to compassion. There's this part of them. Yeah. We want to go back to mom. We want to go back and live with mom. But then there's also like a, wait, they have a bad experience with her on a home visit. Now they don't want to, they don't want to. 

And that's tricky because you always want to also say like, you get to be angry and you get to be hurt and you don't have to forgive anybody unless you want to, but also keep a tender place open.

And I would say, here's the thing. Mom has a broken heart, something broke her heart. And we don't know what it was. We don't know how it happened. Um, we can make some guesses, but we don't know for sure. And mom acts this way or that way towards you because she has a broken heart and she never got the healing that she needed. So we're going to keep hoping that she gets that healing, but it's not you.

This is mom's broken heart. You're not the problem, you know? And so they kind of adapted that language and could frame like, Really hard interactions with her through, okay, that's not me. That's not my fault. That's mom's broken heart. Mom was not the only abuser in their life.And again, like some people have been really angry with me, even friends about my framing of this. But that is the only way I found to explain these things to kids. It's like big, evil monsters and perpetrators they weren't born like that. 

You know, you want to just like get on their side and be like, yeah, they're terrible. They're awful. And you should have never had to experience that. And I've had those moments, but it's like nobody dreams of growing up and abusing their kids. Nobody dreams of growing up and having their family torn apart. And so it's like something happened, many things happened and their hearts were broken and they didn't have someone step in and say like, what's happening to your heart? That must've really hurt. You know? Um, we don't know all of the things that happened.

Broken hearts are a really big deal. And our responsibility is to make sure that we keep pursuing healing for ourselves. Um, Because when you heal, then you get to be a healer to other people. And when you don't heal, you run a very high risk of hurting other people. So I feel like even now, as I'm talking to you, I'm not meaning to talk to you like a kid, but like, this was our language for so many years. 

Julia Winston: No, I'm so glad that you shared that. I mean, that specificity, it's just like radical compassion, like the deepest kind of healing work. 

Chalice: I was so committed to like, I am not the good guy and your mom's the bad guy, like that is not what this is. I am the person who was given resources to be able to love you well and your mom was not given this. And so their mom did terrible things and would say terrible things to them and would say terrible things to me. But I think the beauty of having this obligation and this commitment to teaching radical compassion was that it forced me no matter what was said or done. It's like, I don't want to raise kids that sort good and bad people. I want to raise children that are emotionally intelligent and are able to see bad behavior and bad choices and think, I wonder what happened to you?

I do know specific incidences of things that have happened in their mom's life. Let me tell you who I would be if I lived her life. I would be her. I would not magically do things better if I was treated the way that she was treated and went through some of the medical trauma that she went through. And if I was a black woman raised in the South in Charleston, South Carolina, it's a lot of really intense, um, racial history and devastation and inequity, obviously. Like if I was her and I was raised that way. This is what would have happened, but I wasn't. I was raised in a stable, loving, loving family. Mostly a little bit jacked up Christian family situation, but I had resources and I had tools and I had materials and I had people and I had books and I had opportunity for healing and I grabbed hold of that and that was not ever, ever anything that was within reach for her to grab hold of. So that is the difference.

Julia Winston: For four years, Chalice, the girls and Nicole were in and out of court trying to figure out a permanent custody situation. The two brothers, including Jamyla’s twin, were living with a different foster family, and the judge’s reunification plan gave Nicole the goal of getting all four kids back. 

Julia Winston: Tell us about the conversation with Nicole that led to you getting full time guardianship.

Chalice: our relationship over those four years was really up and down. And depending on the day I was either like, you know, thank you so much for all your help, or you're the reason my family's separated, which very understandable. And so it was really up and down and you know, she would confide in me and say, I don't think I can do this. DSS wants me to complete this parenting plan and get all these kids back. And that terrifies me. But if I say I can't, then, then I'm a terrible person. So, you know, she would be going along with the plan with DSS and then be telling me, like, I don't know how to do this. And so all along I would try and say you know, I'll be there with you as much as I can, but also like, I understand, cause I'm raising two of the four, we're both single moms, like, I don't, I don't know how you would do all four of these kids, but I can help as much as you're able and as much as you're willing to let me.

You can tell that she has not had a lot of people to trust. And I was probably the least likely person that she could trust in a lot of ways. Um, because out of my protection for the kids, I had to stand in opposition to her many times. She didn't know whether or not she could trust me, but my hope was that over all these years together that she could see that like, yes, I'm fighting for them, but I care deeply for you.

So a lot of conversations came up where I would say I'm willing to raise these girls and to do it with you. We live 10 minutes apart. I live on the side of the city and you're over here. And if you can try and be creative with me, like we can make this work. And that was just too scary for her for a long time. It was like, no, I can't do that. I can't do that. Which I understood. And so I would say, you don't have to, I don't have to adopt them. So we'd have these really honest conversations but then, you know, this person or that person would get in her ear and say, you know, that woman's just trying to take your kids from you or who gives up on their kids. She had a lot of shame from her family, which was really sad. And so the conversation went back and forth and back and forth and back and forth. it would keep coming down to was like, Nope, I need my kids back. I just got to get my kids back. 

Julia Winston: Four years into living together, Chalice, Aaliyah and Jamyla were back in court to talk about reuniting with Mommy Cole. 

Chalice: And she came to me, minutes before we went into court and was like, would you still be willing to raise the girls? And I was, Like shell shocked. I had initiated these conversations so many times. I couldn't have ever imagined her initiating the conversation.

I just said, yes. I don't know how to explain like the tumultuousness of all of these years. I think she really believed, I think Chalice is going to do what she says she's going to do, which is like not take the kids away from me, but provide a safe space for them to grow up where I can still be their mom. 

So that day in court, in front of the judge, she told the judge Change the whole plan. All the caseworkers, the guardian ad litem, everyone's looking around like, what is happening? And she tells the judge like, I'd really like to give it a try with the boys and see if I can be successful with them and the girls are doing really well with Chalice. And so I'd like for Chalice to keep them with, legal and physical custody, not an adoption arrangement. Her parental rights would stay intact. She would hold the right to visit. She would, she holds a lot of rights with her parental rights intact, but they would live with me and she was voluntarily giving legal and physical custody, which was crazy and amazing.

Julia Winston: What was it like to tell the girls?

Chalice: I have a picture of when I went and told Aaliyah. She just like leapt into my arms and it was so beautiful because it wasn't I won in court. It was, let me tell you what your mom's idea was. Your mom loves you so much and knows that you're doing really well and that life is good for you right now and she wants it to keep being good for you. And so your mom asked the judge if you guys could stay with me. And if we could keep being a family. 

Aaliyah: I remember when my mom told me I gave her a big hug and I squeezed her and I was like, mom, really, really? I was so excited. I just felt happy. It's like the best day ever

Julia Winston: how about you Jamyla?

Jamyla: I also felt really excited. Like to stay at one place and like stay somewhere more safe. At my Mommy Cole's house her house was really dark and I felt really scared sometimes And then when I found out I was like Yay, that's gonna be so fun. I felt good, like, that we wouldn't, like, be scared anymore, and we wouldn't, like, have to be, feel, like, anxious and sad. I felt like I was going to have a really fun time.

Julia: The girls and Chalice celebrated together that day, but they also had mixed feelings about what this decision meant. 

Aaliyah: I think that I felt like a little bit sad for my, um, brothers.

Jamyla:When I found out I, I was sad too for my brothers.

Julia: Their brothers were going to live with Nicole for the first time in a few years. 

Chalice: Cause they were with a foster family that we knew. Once they went back to live with mom, you know, that was a big transition for the boys. They had now been away from her for three years. so they had a lot of transitioning to do, and there was a lot of confusion. Where are our sisters? Why aren't our sisters coming back? You know, they thought that was the plan. So all along these like victories, there's like, you hold this heartbreak. My girls were celebrating, like, we get to stay at our school, we get to stay with, you know, this mom. Our life gets to stay the same, and the boys are grieving, and so we're having to be sensitive to that. 

Julia Winston: It's been four years since Chalice got legal and physical custody of the girls. In that time they've been able to settle into a new chapter of their lives, including all the complicated family dynamics that come with it. 

Chalice: I just have had to like make friends with awkward. With my own family of origin, like there are beautiful, wonderful times on family vacations, and there are times when you're like, Get out of my face. You're the worst person ever. I consider Nicole like an extension of that in a very real way. Like she makes me really mad sometimes and she cracks me up sometimes. And I'm so endeared by, you know, the little card that she sent or the new school outfit that she got for Jamila, like the ways that she's thoughtful. And I'm also really pissed off because she forgot this or that. And she certainly feels that way with me, you know, like I can be very intentional and inclusive. And then there was a mother's day that went by that I, I forgot, I forgot to reach out. And that was so painful and how could I, you know, and so that's very real. 

Julia Winston: How have the girls brothers and Nicole been sort of integrated at this point? What does the family look like?

Chalice: We had already over the past four years, as tumultuous as it was, we were doing Christmases together. We were doing birthdays together. we were hanging out, we were going and getting pizza. We were meeting at the park. We were, so I was establishing along the way, like, this is what it could look like. One of our favorite memories every year, thing we look forward to. I always host like a Christmas brunch in the morning. They come over, like we open our presents, do our thing. And then the boys and their mom and usually their mom's mom Would come over and we'd have a big feast. And that got really cool through the years because you know, the first year would be mom and the boys. And the second year was mom and grandma and the boys, and then their aunt and uncle would catch wind of it.

And there was one year, I think we had like 14 or 15 people from their biological family that just showed up because they heard there was going to be pancakes on Christmas morning. And so, yeah, that's been really, really special. Um, we always celebrate the twins birthday together and we'll have them over or we'll go to the pool or something.

We're in pretty constant communication. Um, and yeah, it's, it's, it's pretty unconventional. Like we, on the one hand, we're living these little separate lives, but there's an open door policy. They're always welcome here. They're always wanted here. And we get to go there too. We love going to their apartment and hanging out with them. Even after all of these years, it's beautiful and it's hard. It's beautiful because they know their mom and, and she can write them birthday cards and she can love them in the best way she knows how. And there are still very real scars from wrongs committed against them. And so we just keep going a day at a time. There are seasons when the girls are wide open to her love and, um, when Christmas morning is really special. And there are seasons when it's not that way. And that's in every family, right?

Julia Winston: So that was, I think that was two, two and a half years ago. How have things felt different?

Aaliyah: well, obviously our family has grown like so much and Some family we've lost but like it's been Really happy to like see our family grow in different ways.

Julia Winston: How have you seen your family grow?

Aaliyah: um, our other mom, Rachel, our mom's fiance, , and I mean our dogs, obviously.

Julia Winston: Rachel was a big addition to the family. Chalice was single for a long time, focused on raising the girls. And Rachel was just a “really close friend”. 

Chalice: So all those really, really, really intense years felt that felt really solo. She kind of came in at the tail end of that and I just thought we were best friends, sisters. We have our whole crazy story of four years of repression and denial and all of this. It was mostly my denial and she, she knew what we were and she knew what we could be and she stood with us and she has loved those girls with everything she has and, now we all live together and it's wonderful. In the last couple months, even she's always been Ray Ray and both girls of their own have Uh called her they start calling her mama. So we're just a big mother trifecta. 

Music or pause?

Julia Winston: Tell me, tell me about when you met Rachel for the first time.

Aaliyah: Um, I think at first for me, since I've been with Chalice for a long time, I got the jealousy feeling that she was, she was going to like take her away or something like that. So I obviously felt really jealous. Jamyla felt like it was the best thing ever.

Jamyla: I felt like Rachel was really fun and she like did a lot. She was like understanding and it was really fun to have her around us. And I really liked her attitude.

Aaliyah: I think I want to share one more thing. Um, ever since, like, my mom is lesbian, she's, uh, queer. And, um, I would say there's, like, kind of a lot of people who just don't accept her for who she is. And it's just Like makes me frustrated because for me, I think it's the best thing ever. Like having two moms, like it just is amazing. And yeah,

Julia Winston: Yeah. What do you, what do you love about having two moms? 

 Aaliyah: I mean, both of them, they are very talented. Like my other mom, she like built my bed and she's so good at cooking. Like her food is just the best thing ever. And I think it's just like girl power around this house. Like, it's just amazing. And we can do whatever we want. Like it's girl power. 

Jamyla: It's like a, it's like a restaurant in our house. Like she can cook so good. And every night there's just a great meal for us.

Julia Winston: What's your favorite thing she cooks? 

Aaliyah: she makes these like bagels and they have like cream cheese in them and she puts like this rosemary thing on top of it and it's so good. So good. 

Chalice: It's a lot of frozen pizza before Ray Ray came.

Julia Winston: When Nicole voluntarily gave up her legal and physical rights over the girls, it did give them some permanency. But Chalice says even after that decision, Aaliyah wanted more. 

Chalice: Over the course of all of these years of back and forth to court, um, that really took a toll on Aaliyah, especially Aaliyah was always the oldest and the most cognizant of everything that was happening. She was constantly being interviewed by this caseworker and prepped by the guardian and light him about this and talk to with this therapist and that therapist. And so she, had to learn to hold Maybe this will happen. Maybe that will happen. Even as I told her, even as we were celebrating after court that I had custody in the back of her mind, she knew enough about the court system to know what custody can be changed. Custody placements aren't permanent. 

And so she never let go of the desire to be adopted. Since we were friends with so many foster families, she would see kids go through foster care and get adopted or kids go through foster care and get reunified and both of those are, you know, permanent situations. So that was always Aaliyah's deepest hope and dream was that she could be adopted.

Aaliyah: I think I just was like, okay, we need to stop going back and forth, back and forth and I think I just want it to be like, I want to have a life with her, you know, cause she's like a really special person and I want her to be there with me in my life.

Julia Winston: What made adoption the answer to you for that? Just to, to know that it was official. Like what was it that was important to you? 

Aaliyah: I think I just wanted people to know that like, she's my mom, you know, even though like I have a birth mom, I just wanted people to know that like, this is my mom and I'm proud of that. 

music

Chalice: Over the course of the next couple of years, I would go to her mom and say, Hey, do you see how we're doing this? I'm not leaving Charleston. I'm not packing up the girls and taking off like. Would you reconsider adoption? And it was just absolutely not. No, no, no, no, no. And so Aaliyah and I kind of had this contingency plan that when she was 16, um, she could get emancipated or when she was 18, she could change her last name. That's kind of what we looked forward to is like these, this sense of permanency is so important to you.

And I've fought for that as much as I know how, um, but I, I can't do anything else except take their mom to court and try to terminate her rights was, was completely off the table. Like We had gotten to a point where I'm like, we will only do this peacefully or we won't do it at all. I would tell Leah, maybe when you're a little older, you can talk to mom. 

So she was 11 or 12 when she's like, I'm not waiting anymore. I'm talking to my mom and I'm like, I want to talk to my mom. I want to tell her I want to be adopted. Rachel and I and Aaliyah and her mom all sat down. And Aaliyah just said, Mom, I really love you. But I want Chalice. She said, Mom, I love you, but I want Mom to adopt me.

I really want to be a Howard. My last name's Howard. And her mom, again, just like that court day where it was like, no, no, no, no, no. She just looked at her and said, Is that what you want? And Aliyah said, It's what I really want. So she said, I can do that. I'm like, what? Like, what? I can't, it's like, even in telling the story, I cannot convey, like, The impossibility of that situation and how in the right time from the right voice from the non threatening voice of her daughter. I actually think it was really healing for, for Nicole that Aaliyah could come to her and say, this is something that I want. Can you do it for me? And she could say, yes, because she, Aaliyah had been hurt by her so many times and there have been major fractures in that relationship. 

I could see in Nicole's face when she said yes to Aaliyah. It was like one of the most deeply maternal moments I've ever seen. My child is coming to me asking me for this thing and it means that I have to step down and say yes for her good and the way that she, the ease that she said yes to that, it's like, I've always known that was in her, despite just the horrible, rotten, no good days I've known that there's care and love, and I saw that, and so she said yes.

Julia Winston: Two years later, the adoption still isn’t finalized because the girls’ birth fathers need to complete the process of signing over parental rights. 

Julia Winston:  When the adoption is finalized, you plan to change your last name to Howard tell me why you want that.

Aaliyah: I would say I'm not really like proud of my last name because it reminds me of my birth dad Who's in jail right now. And, um, he's like the one who keeps like trying to like stop the adoption or like try to hold it back. That's why it's taking like a long time for it to happen.

Julia Winston: what is it about sharing chalice's last name howard that's important to you?

Aaliyah: Our family, like the Howard family, they're like so kind, and like we just, I love them so much, I have so many awesome and wonderful cousins, I just like, I feel honored to share the last name.

Julia Winston: Jamyla also wants to be adopted by Chalice, but has a different plan for her name. She's going to hyphenate her current last name with Howard. 

Jamyla: My twin, um, Jamar, he has the same, he's going to have the same last name as me. He's really special to me. And I really felt like I really, I still wanted my, my last name. So I just hyphenated it because my birth family, are still very special to me and I really felt like I really wanted to keep their last name.

Julia Winston: The adoption will also allow Chalice and Rachel to focus on solidifying their roles in the family. 

Chalice: Once the adoption finalizes, Rachel and I will, can legally get married and we'll hopefully be getting married in the spring. Um, I would love for Nicole to be my maid of honor. Like I, there's nothing I could hope for more than that. I hold her in such a place of honor.

Julia Winston: When Chalice was younger, she looked up to her aunt and uncle who had adopted kids, found them inspirational. She saw the situation from the adults’ point of view, that they were helping kids who needed a new home. But she didn't always see it from her cousins' perspective, the adopted children, about what they’d lost. Now, Chalice sees the situation with a wider lens. 

Chalice: Part of the reason I wanted to tell my story is because I've met a lot of people who want to foster, adopt, or meet the girls and I, and think like, Oh, that would be so cool. And it's so important to me that people understand that by nature, adoption and foster care are birthed out of tragedy. It is not inherently beautiful that a child needs a different mother than the one that they were born from. It's devastating that for whatever reason, someone's not able to, to care for their child, especially because most of the time that is the desire of the parent, right?

I was this person at one time, thinking there's saving to do,and if we can start from the vantage point of like, wow, there was this family that existed apart from me and I'm being given the honor because of my resources to come in and to maybe help with some mending that is the vantage point that I hope that can start to shift. 

The work of foster care and adoption in my life and in my heart is family preservation. It is still my role as another mom to keep preserving this family unit, to keep drawing them back to each other, to keep helping them see each other. And so I hope that I hear that in the years to come as like more of a theme is really, being a bridge and not being a savior. Like these girls need their mom, their first mom. They need me too, but it has been out of my love for them that I fight for their relationship with their mom, um, because she deserves that and they deserve that.

Julia Winston: What advice would you give to other kids who are going to live with a new adult or guardian like you did?

Aaliyah: I would say that can be like hard sometimes, but it can also like, if you're coming through like a hard place in your life, it can be like, really like, joyful and exciting. don't know, just feels really safe. It's like a safe environment. 

Jamyla: Yeah, um, I, I really agree with Aaliyah too. When you're going to a new person, it can be really hard. But also, if person, if you think they're safe, then I think that could really change your life, and Be a lot more better for you

Julia Winston: What do kids need from adults in this kind of situation?

Aaliyah: Um, especially like need comfort because they're coming. They're probably coming through a hard, um, place. They also might need, um, I don't know, I don't know how to explain it. But, um, with Chalice, she like did a really good job. And she just like, I don't know, did her best that she could and like everything was good.

Jamyla: First of all, I think they need a lot of love and I think they really need to listen to them. And Like, if they're having a hard time, you should, like, say, like, what's wrong, like, can I help you? And, like, really try to help them, and make them feel comfort.

Julia Winston: Aaliyah, Jamyla and their moms have been refamulating for many years, and their story continues to evolve. Like all refamulating journeys, theirs is one of inner and outer transformation. The structure of their family is still changing on the outside, and the love inside each of them continues to grow and deepen.  For Chalice, becoming a mother has been the biggest transformation of all. 

Chalice: I love my life. Like, I love my life as the mother of these two girls. They are The best things that have ever happened to me. 

05: Are You My Llama: Creating a blended family after divorce

Lauren always knew she wanted a family. The way she imagined it, she’d meet a great guy, get married, and have babies. But when she finally met Dan in her late 30s, that’s not how it happened. Dan was a divorced dad with two small kids, so their family became a blended one. Lauren’s transition from Lauren to Mama (aka Llama), led her on a journey to grieve her single life, learn her new role as a bonus parent and grapple with her least favorite word: step-mother. Along the way she gained more love than she ever imagined was possible. 

__

Episode transcript is below. Transcripts may not appear in their final form.

__

Julia: In May 2019, Lauren hosted her last birthday party for herself at her San Francisco apartment. She was 36 at the time, and was about to leave the city to move three hours away, near Lake Tahoe. This party was a chance to say goodbye to her friends...the city...and also to the apartment. 

Lauren: That was my home. I made it my home. It had my artwork up in it. It had furniture I had gotten second hand and I just loved it so much. And while I was very excited to move into this new beautiful house, I really had to say goodbye to 90 Castro. 

Julia: Lauren moved in in her late 20s, when she first came to California. She lived in that apartment for 8 years, evolving and changing into the person who was now ready to move to Lake Tahoe. 

Lauren: I invited people over people that were meaningful, um, parts of that journey, and it was really beautiful to have the energy and to have the people and to say goodbye to 90 Castro, as that was the end of that chapter

Julia: Lauren's party was about more than this apartment. 

Her move was about more than a new city and a new house. 

Lauren's party marked the end of her single, child-free life.

The reason she was moving to Tahoe was to move in with Dan, the man she would eventually marry. And Lauren was SO excited about that! 

But... Dan was divorced with two small kids. So moving in with him meant she was stepping into a new role in someone else's family.

In the four years since Lauren said goodbye to her apartment and started her life with Dan, the two of them have done what forty percent of all married couples in America do: they created a blended family. 

These days, Lauren and Dan are married. They raise Dan's two kids half of the time. And they've had a child of their own. Their blended family is full of love, and naturally, there are also challenges. Some of their challenges are unique, and some come from the sheer fact of being a blended family - a new family unit that has formed in the wake of another family unit falling apart. So co parenting, raising children with different parents and stepping into the role of step-parent is nuanced.

I'm Julia Winston, and this is Refamulating, a podcast that explores different ways to make a family. Today, Lauren and Dan walk us through some of the nuances that come with a blended family. 

Which starts, of course, with their love story. 

Lauren grew up in North Carolina, where her family all lived in the same town. Most of the women she knew got married and had kids. So as she became an adult, she too imagined having a family of her own. But after a big heartbreak in her mid-20s, she took a break from dating. Instead, she traveled abroad to Ecuador, Columbia and Israel for most of her 20s and focused on short lived flings.

Lauren: I came back to the United States and my siblings had kids and a lot of the women I grew up with were married and having families and all of a sudden I think I felt behind. That I really wanted a family. I wanted a partner and family and dating became something else after that. Became another job.

Julia: Oy. I know that feeling of being single and feeling behind. I know it well. Anyone else know that feeling? (sigh) Anyway, dating started feeling like a job for Lauren because she was serious about meeting people. She told her friends to set her up. She used dating apps. Some weeks, she went on multiple first dates. And while some of these dates turned into relationships, none of them felt serious enough for marriage or kids.

Lauren: This was kind of in my early thirties and I would have boyfriends for about a year And then often it was mutual where we'd be like, this is it. This is great. You're great. But this isn't how I see my future. Even though I often knew, well, that's not the right person for me. There was still sadness for me becaus e I felt like this family oriented person without a family. I felt behind, like everyone was partnering, having families, and I was measuring myself against this really traditional measuring stick, which I had never previously done. And when I use that measuring stick, I was falling short. 

Julia: Those damn measuring sticks can really feel like they’re beating you into the ground, right? It's so hard to feel like you’re not measuring up, whether it’s about being single or some other fundamental part of your life. You can't force a husband and kids upon yourself...you have to be patient! (God! Patience! Oof! Such a tough one). So for much of Lauren's dating life, she was also working on accepting her life as it was. Her therapist at the time pointed this out... 

Lauren: And I remember she asked me, let's say you never meet a partner and never have kids. What are five things you need in your life to be happy? And I don't remember exactly what I said, but I probably mentioned a career I love, hobbies that excite me, a great community of friends, strong relationship with my family, exciting travel adventures, things like that. And I focused on those things.

I think people would say I was really good at like putting myself out there, letting people know they could set me up and sometimes going the extra mile to meet someone. But in the meantime, I did eventually have to let go of that measuring stick and say, you know what I'm doing pretty good. Like I don't need that traditional measuring stick where I'm gonna be falling short.  Let me use this alternative measuring stick and a sense that I could feel really good about myself And where I was at in life. 

Julia: While Lauren navigated this tension of...how did she phrase it? "being a family oriented person without a family"....Dan was 200 miles away navigating the opposite situation. He was married with kids. 

Dan: I guess I always grew up with, um, this very traditional ideology, as of get out of high school, go to college, find a partner, have kids, build a life together. Very, very kind of traditional. Um, image of that's just what you did.

Julia: Dan grew up with this traditional ideology about family, but his family wasn’t traditional. He grew up a child of divorce, and the situation was…complicated. 

His dad and stepmom had majority custody, and he saw his mom about once a month. There was a lot of tension amongst the adults, and Dan felt that as a kid.

But since he lived with his dad and stepmom most of the time, he subscribed to their traditional views of family. So when he was in his mid-20s and moved to the Lake Tahoe area, he met a girl, and got married.

Dan: I did fall in love for sure. Um, but I think I was also very stubborn at the time. And just, uh, determined to make a relationship work. I think our relationship was fine. I didn't really know or have a whole lot to compare it to. It was really my only long term relationship I had ever been in. Um, I didn't know that much about being a partner and what that looks like, and I was just learning in my, my early thirties what it means to be a father, a partner, uh, and kind of all those things. And fast forward, uh, I was together with my ex for, I think, twelve or thirteen years, and we were married for eight. Eight and a half years, and there was a lot of, uh, inter family stress and friction between her and my parents. Um, and that is not the only reason that we, uh, split up, but definitely that was a major cause of stress for us in our relationship.

Julia: Dan and his wife got divorced, for reasons that frankly aren't our business. And just FYI, we didn't interview Dan's ex-wife, because we’re focusing on Dan and Lauren’s experience of creating a blended family. So you won’t hear from her in this episode, but we want to acknowledge that her role in this family is important.

When Dan got divorced, it forced him to really think about relationships and whether he'd want to be married again.

Dan: Going through my divorce, I feel like is when I really started to do the soul searching and the personal work and the exploration and explore what is it to be happy and what is a relationship, what should it look like. And discovered Brene Brown who really kind of changed who I was as a person and went from being a very private person who always had a smile on and everything was fine to being a very, very vulnerable and open person and kind of wearing my emotions on my sleeve and walking into situations and And sharing marbles, as Brene Brown would say.

Julia: What does it mean to share marbles?

Dan: She has this term called marble jar friends. And basically, when you share stories with somebody, You are sharing your marbles, and in return, people will share their stories with you and share their marbles. And over time, you have these jars with your friends names on them, and they have all their marbles in them. And it's the people, really, who had collected the most jars with the most marbles and built the most relationship, meaningful relationships, real relationships. Um, those are the folks who were really the happiest and, and the healthiest later in life. 

In reading Brene Brown and understanding that it really revolves around shame. And, and having internal shame and not wanting to share that stuff because you're ashamed of it. I remember going on a trip with, uh, a ski trip with a half a dozen of my closest friends. And we were in Canada for two weeks together. And we get home and, uh, Two weeks later, I moved out from my ex wife and I, I was at a bar with a bunch of friends, you know, later, just a day or two later, and I told them that we were splitting up and I had moved out, and they were shocked that we had just spent two weeks together in the mountains, and I did not say one peep about, um, kind of the situation of my relationship, and, and these are friends who, you know, I'd known for, since I'd moved to Tahoe for, for, A dozen plus years.

And that's when it kind of struck me that living a life without sharing, and without being vulnerable, and with hiding your shame, was a little bit meaningless and a little bit soulless. And I, I kind of almost overnight, um, changed as a person and, and started going to situations and saying, Hey, my name is Dan, I'm divorced. My brother was in jail, I have this, I have that, whatever it is. And just kind of walking into a room with your hand out full of marbles. And some people would embrace that and they would turn around and grab their bag of marbles and want to share back with you. And those are the people who have since, in the past five years, um, become my, my absolutely closest friends. 

Julia: A few months after Dan and his ex-wife started the divorce process, he got the chance to share some of his marbles with Lauren. His brother invited Dan to come visit in San Francisco.

Dan: I did not know, but it was, um, it was a setup, and they had also invited Lauren, who they knew through, uh, the synagogue and the Jewish community. 

Lauren: I got a text from Dan's brother, whom I was well acquaintanced with. I but they, I think this was the very first text I ever received from him. And it said, Hey, my brother's coming to town. I'm getting a fun group of people together for dinner. Can you join? So I of course knew this was a set up. I got set up all the time. 

Dan: There was, uh, five of us. And we went and hung out at a friend's house and then we all went out to dinner and immediately Lauren and I started chatting about Brene Brown and Connection and, you know, a conversation that I probably would not have been capable of having even just a year or certainly two years before that.

Lauren: Right away I just thought he was adorable and looked so out of place in the city. He was like this mountain man in the city coming to hang out. So I really didn't know anything about him. And in front of him, Jen asked me, Lauren, could you date a man with kids? And I said, sure, I could date a man with kids as long as he wanted to have more. 10 minutes later, Dan starts talking about his kids. And at the end of the evening, Dan asked if he could get my number. I got a text. Either that night or in the morning that said, you're super cool. I'd love to see you again. 

Dan: I found out that she was going to Burning Man for her first time. And I was going also that year, it was not my first time. And we kind of stayed in touch and exchanged some texts over the next month or so. And then we kind of had our first date on the playa. 

Lauren: We had a lovely first date at burning man, where he came and picked me up and we explored art on the playa. And I really thought he was just for fun You know, he had just gotten separated. He had two kids. There was also several other guys I was connecting with at Burning Man. And while he was my favorite by far, you know, he had two kids. He lived hours away. I wasn't necessarily expecting what was going to happen next, which was when I left Burning Man after having hung out with him a couple times, I received a slew of very romantic, sweet text messages from him. And of course, which he asked when he could come see me again, which was Probably the next week or two. He came to San Francisco to see me and That's when I knew things were for real

Julia: This first visit wasn't a playful night out between two people who just met. Lauren says it was clear right away that they had serious feelings for each other. 

Lauren: I'll go ahead and tell you a fun detail that's slightly embarrassing. I told him he could come visit me as long as he didn't expect a sleepover. And um, we had a lovely time together, but when I asked him to leave that evening, he, um, you know, asked why. And I said, well, it's a late night. I have work the next day and like, I don't want to get too attached. And he, um, became tearful and said, but I want you to be attached. I'm already attached. 

Lauren: And so that was when I was like, okay, we're together. This is, this is it. This is for real. And it was, it was just, it just flowed after that. It just was so easy being with him and that's what was so different about my other relationships. I felt like I dated extraordinary men who were wonderful people who treated me very well. But it always felt like work. It felt hard. The relationships felt hard. And from day one, even though Dan had kids, even though he was in the middle of a divorce, even though he lived, you know, over three hours away in a cold place, and I do not like to be cold, A relationship was easy. Being with him was easy. Communicating with him was easy. And it was just like letting nature take its course. It was letting the river flow.  

Julia: Lauren and Dan have fallen in love, and are in a full on, Brene Brown approved relationship. Dan has custody of his kids half of the time, so they mostly see each other on the weeks when he’s not in dad mode. But it was important to Dan that the kids and Lauren met early on.

About six weeks after their first date at Burning Man, Dan and his kids were visiting his brother again near San Francisco. 

Lauren: When I met his kids, it was super casual. I was just meeting them as a friend. My roommate was having this huge pancake brunch in Golden Gate Park. And I even texted Dan, you know, if you want, bring the kids, it'd be great to meet them. And then he walks up with his two adorable children in a wagon and my heart just melted 

Dan: and I just introduced her to my kids as a friend, and immediately they, I don't know, they recognized her as a sparkly, sparkly jewel. And they kind of, my daughter especially, grabbed her and took her off into the woods and they started chasing fairies and, um, Actually a funny story was my, my six year old, uh, we live in the woods and she has, um, no qualms with going to the bathroom in the woods. And there we were in, uh, Golden Gate Park and she grabs Laura and they're off in the woods and she says she has to poop. And so there she is, and she just drops her pants right there behind a tree, and I think she said something like, make sure no boys are coming, and she pooped right there behind a tree. And Lauren was just completely caught off guard, had no idea what to do. Um, and it was just kind of a funny situation. And so then I saw what was going on, I went over there and helped rescue her. 

Julia: Nothing like a good poop moment to seal the deal, right? (laugh) At least it was a kid who was doing the pooping and not one of the adults! 

Dan’s kids were 4 and 6 at the time, which Lauren recognizes made it a little easier to connect. The six year old daughter opened up to her right away, but Lauren says it took a little bit longer with Dan’s younger son.  

Deciding when to introduce your kids to a new partner is different for everyone. Lauren and Dan both agree bringing the kids into their relationship early was what was best for them. 

Lauren: You know, there's a lot of advice out there for parents with kids not to introduce your kids to your partner until it's till later on, and I just completely disagree with that. Of course, I'm sure it's circumstantial, but for me, I met his kids very early on and I fell in love with him and his children at the same time. I fell in love with him as a dad, which is who he is. And I think that advice really robs people of that opportunity and doesn't set their relationship up for success. I think it was really easy to fall in love with someone who was a dad, who had that nurturing part of him, who loved his kids and prioritized his kids. You know, a lot of times you fall in love with somebody who you think is going to be a great dad, but I already had proof. And it was a really big part of who he was. 

Dan: I've had other friends who have, uh, similar situations, they were divorced, and they had kids, and they met somebody, and they kind of lived two separate lives, where they would have this new partner, and the new partner would not meet the kids. And they would have a lovely fling and relationship and whatever. But it was always kind of just a vacation and I think, um, with Lauren, you know, I, I didn't want it to be a vacation. I wanted her to know who I was and, and my kids were, um, obviously a very big part of who I was and it's, it was kind of a non negotiable as well. Like, I wasn't gonna get in a relationship with anybody who wasn't going to embrace me for who I was, embrace my kids, and want to play a significant role in raising them and being their stepmother.

Julia: But they didn't jump right into Lauren being a stepmother. Things progressed slowly over a year. Lauren and Dan spent a lot of time together when he didn't have the kids, and when he did, they had Lauren meet up with them at restaurants and public places.

Lauren: We were intentional in terms of having it be gradual with me being around the kids. And I remember I met up with them at a pizza place and Dan sister was there too. And Leora was telling me, go, go talk to daddy, go talk to daddy. And she was like writing little notes in a book that said like big L heart, little L. And when I left her, she said, are you sure you don't want to spend the night and stay tonight? You can stay forever. That was amazing. And then the first time I did stay the night when she was there, we took her to school on Monday and she gave me a little stuffed mouse and said, Don't forget about me. And so I just, you know, I fell in love with his kids as I was falling in love with him. 

And I had never felt that type of love from children before. And To start seeing Leora Jude on a regular basis and the means so excited to see me When I was with their dad just brought so much more joy and meaning to my life to get to be A part of children's lives. 

Dan made it easy. It wasn't like I had these responsibilities with his kids. He just always told me like, I just want you to be a good role model. cause I didn't really know how to be around kids. Like I didn't want to wipe their snotty noses and I didn't, you know, like I didn't want to, uh, discipline them or anything like that. So I was. I feel like in the beginning, my relationship with them was very much like a fun auntie. You know, I would read to them and I would play with them and I got to be a fun auntie with them. 

Julia: A year and a half into their relationship, Dan proposed to Lauren. She slowly started moving in with him, but held on to the San Francisco apartment. And when she finally let it go, it was harder than she expected. 

Lauren: When these things became official and I let go of my apartment and I was living in a home with children and I was planning to expand our family, I realized I had become attached to my identity as a citizen single woman, a successful single woman who had a career, who had a community, who went out a lot, who got takeout a lot, who went out dancing. And these, I remember specifically being like I'm not going to have any stories to tell anymore because all my funny stories had to do with random flings and funny dates. And I loved that part of my life, telling funny stories about my ridiculous dating love life. And I was just like, that's that part of me is over. 

And humor aside, I needed to really intentionally step into a new chapter of my life while honoring the previous chapter in a way that felt good. 

I have this amazing women's circle and I remember bringing it up with them and sharing how I was feeling. And they supported me in a way where I remember one woman sent me songs for this transition of my life to listen to, and they just gave me an avenue to speak about it. I journaled about it and really sharing with other women that journey was a way I honored it that felt right for me.

Julia: so I'm in your women's circle and, and this is, you know, the reason I know your story and wanted to invite you to tell it is because I've been a witness to it. Over the many years and I was so inspired when you came to us and you you knew exactly you knew what you needed and you asked for it and that alone is an alternative measuring stick you were like, Hey, I am moving into a new chapter of my life and I've realized that I need to let go of, um, my single independent life as I start a family and you know, join a family and start a family and I'm actually sad and I'm grieving. Um, I'm excited about where I'm going and also I want to make space for the grief and the sadness of saying goodbye to the life that I've loved, known because I've loved it. Even though I was yearning for something more, now I've found that and now I have to actually say goodbye to what I had that I also loved. And I really was just amazed at, I witnessed a woman yearning and stepping into her desire and it also grieving, it really showed me the range and the breadth of one person that it can all be true at one time. And I saw that as a model. 

Julia: This tension that lies in that space between losing something familiar in order to gain something new is at the heart of many refamulating experiences. For many of us creating quote unquote non-traditional families, we’ve had to let go of something. 

Maybe that's just letting go of expectations or ideas about what your family will look like. I can relate to that one. But sometimes..it means letting go of people. Dan's divorce created a big loss for his children- the loss of their parents living in one home- so Lauren and Dan worked really hard to include the kids in every stop of their relationship.

When we come back, we'll hear about the joys and challenges of creating a blended family. 

Julia: Once Lauren moved in full time with Dan, the couple started preparing the kids for the changes that were coming. 

Lauren: I had reached out to a friend of mine via Facebook that I noticed was a stepdad just to get some advice on how it went for him. And he told me one of the most important things was having, that he, one of the things he wished he had done is had a nickname for the kids. And so llama was planted. It's like Lauren plus mama equals llama. And I wrote them books via some site where you pick the characters and you can write a book. And in the book is the story of how I met each kid. And so I gave it to Leora maybe on her eighth birthday, but it's the story of Llama and Leora and it ends with I can't wait to make it official. And so she has that and I made one for Judah as well.

And then there was this whole thing where it was, Oh, when we get married, it's going to be official. And so I think having that momentum of we're engaged, there's going to be a wedding. This is going to be official, really solidified us as a family before we were actually married because we didn't get married for until years later because we waited until after the pandemic. 

Julia: The kids were excited about Lauren and Dan getting married. But Dan grew up in a blended family, and he knew that he, his ex-wife, and Lauren would have to work really hard to make sure that any conflict amongst the adults didn't impact the kids. 

Julia: What did you learn from your own blended family growing up that influenced your decisions as you've started to blend and build family with Lauren?

Dan: Uh, I think the importance of the relationship with their stepmom and how to cultivate that so that they have a close relationship, and Lauren is just amazing at doing that already as, as, as the person that she is. And I think the importance of, um, encouraging and promoting a healthy relationship, uh, with the kids, with their mother, and as much as possible making sure that it doesn't feel like they have, Uh, two separate lives, even though they do have two separate lives, it's, it's hard to avoid that.

I don't have an overly great relationship with my ex wife. Um, but I think the kids have done a really good job of adapting to going back and forth between two households. Uh, it's very, it's very different than what I had when I was growing up, certainly. And also the same dynamic when I was little between my dad and my mom and always trying to please both of them, which is, it's a lose lose situation. And so now, as much as possible, I really try to not put my kids in that same dynamic where it's trying to either make me happy, or their mom happy, or their stepmom happy, or somebody else, and try and not put them in the middle, um, and really try and encourage them to focus on their own happiness.

Julia: One way they keep the kids out of the middle is that Dan serves as the main liaison between all of the adults, so everyone has the same information.

Dan: I find sometimes making decisions, uh, in conjunction with either Lauren or, uh, my kid's mom independently, and just telling the kids this is what the decision is. So they're not actually put in a position where they need to make a challenging decision that they might not really be equipped to make as, again, they try and please both their parents, which I feel like every kid is going to always try and do. Um, as they seek love and, um, acceptance. Um, I feel like I was raised with a very conditional love. And especially, um, from my dad. And so that is something I'm very conscious of with my own kids. To try and make sure that they understand that the love is unconditional. And that they are enough and that I love them. And they don't need to do or succeed on whatever level for me to be proud of them. And, and love them unconditionally. 

Lauren: Dan is more the primary contact with their mom, they're the ones that are figuring out the schedule and she and I have met and had tea and coffee here and there to talk about the kids, but I think it's really important for Dan that he doesn't feel bypassed. Like in our home, he is the primary parent. It's important to me that the kids see um, me and their mom as allies, as friendly, as pleasant. It's easy enough to do that. You know, they do sense the tension and the conflict between their mom and dad. And I really try to stay out of it.

Julia: It's been four years since Lauren moved in with Dan and the kids. While she absolutely loves her role as Judah and Leora's llama, she's struggled with some of the assumptions that come with being a stepmom.

Julia: tell me your thoughts about the word stepmother.

Lauren: I think it's awful. I think it is so triggering. I think it's so hard not to have knee jerk negative reaction to it because of Disney and all the other things. It's really hard. And yet it is what I am and I'm called it all the time and there's no real reason why it needs to be negative. But I, I struggle with owning the term, although in certain circumstances it definitely feels like the most appropriate term to use. And the kids don't seem to have a negative connotation with it, although my stepdaughter was literally Snow White in a school play and literally said my evil stepmother's trying to kill me. 

Julia: why do you think that is?

Lauren: I mean, Cinderella, Snow White, I'm sure. There are some examples and I'm sure there's some sociological reason of society having a hard time with other women taking care of the children who still have their biological mothers and sharing that time. Hopefully it's changing. Yeah. There's the new term bonus mom that doesn't feel quite right either. Other mom, second mom, it's like you want a term that still acknowledges and respects the biological mother. 

A lot of step moms feel they can do no right because there's this dichotomy of oh, well, if you call them your step kids and you don't refer to them as your own children then you're not being loving enough. And then there's this idea that if you call them your children and you want them to call you mom or something like that, then you're being disrespectful to their biological mother and stepping on her toes. 

I remember sharing how excited I was by this really cute love letter that Judah wrote me and my friend just having this knee jerk reaction of, Oh, if I was his mom, I would hate that. And I'm like, okay, that's one way to look at it. Or if you are his mom, you can think that's great, he has another adult in his life who cares for him. Or you could also just look at it from my lens. And so there have been a few moments like that, that have been hard. And I think that often unconsciously people have this loyalty to a biological mother that would assume negativity around a stepmother that doesn't really bear much reality, so to speak, not for the kids. The kids don't feel like one love excludes another. And I think sometimes adults have a harder time with that than children.

So I just feel like you're constantly figuring out what your lane is. You don't want to overstep and disrespect their, their mother. Um, and you want to make sure they feel loved and nurtured and supported enough by you. And so I think sema  ntics can make that more challenging, but that, that's kind of playing in my mind a lot with the kids. 

Julia: This is why many of us come up with new names when we refamulate. We have such limited vocabulary for people who are close to us. Of course we’ve got titles for the usual suspects- mom, dad, aunt, uncle, cousin. For non-relatives we have friend...or best friend. We don't really have options for people you aren't blood related to. 

In my situation with the egg daddies, there was no title for "a woman we know who is donating her eggs and will spend time with our children but not act like a parent"....which is how we settled on Fairy Godmother. 

Titles and language can set the tone for an entire relationship. And Lauren has found that to be true for herself and the kids. 

Lauren: I love Llama because it feels good. Their teachers call me Llama. If their friends call me Llama, I like it. Llama is such a positive, fun, Word for us. It feels right. It feels full of love. You know, I call them my little apocas. They still use the term stepmom in, in context in certain situations. And that's totally fine. 

A lot of times I'll say I'm their step mom, they call me llama. And it's like, as soon as I let them, whoever, no, they call me llama. Then there's this autumn automatic. Oh, the kids must like you. Because I think I really think that people have this unconscious bias that most kids don't like their step mom. Or that most stepmoms don't like their stepkids. And so that's why that word triggers me. Because of an unconscious bias that often goes with it. And not by people who have necessarily experienced stepparents. Those people are often the most supportive. But people that have grown up in traditional families and haven't been that exposed to it.

Julia: Three years ago, Lauren and Dan took another step in blending their family. They got pregnant with a child of their own, something Lauren had wanted her whole life. They didn't know how the kids would react, so to tell them....

Lauren: we, uh, and had them watch the, the movie or documentary called Babies. It follows four different babies, their first year of life in four different cultures around the world. And so we watched that together. And then afterwards we said, Do you know why we watch this? And they had often asked me if I was going to have a baby, right? Like that was something they were curious and interested in. And so it was this nice, beautiful, like celebration with the kiddos afterwards. And, you know, they went to school the next day and like told their teachers and were really excited to celebrate it. Dan very respectfully did tell their mother before he told the kids so that she would learn about it from him first.

And it was a really exciting time, and I had a very beautiful, easy birth at a birthing center. Sophie Jean was born around midnight. And we were able to get home around seven in the morning so the kiddos could meet their baby sister before they went to school. And we didn't know if she was going to be a boy or girl and Leora was absolutely ecstatic that it was a girl. And I just remember so well seeing the kids see Sophie for the first time and how much they loved her. And how sweet it felt as a family for her to bring us all together even, uh, more unified.

Julia: And a new child changed the dynamic for everyone. 

Lauren: It gives a different rhythm, right? So one week when we have the big kids, we're a big family and it's louder and we have the big kids activities to attend to and Sophie just wants to be all up in their business all the time and play with them. And one thing that's really hard is when they're gone, she says their names a lot. She really misses them when they're not here. And when they are here, I feel like Dan and I Are really available to them and present to them. We try not to go off as much. And then when we don't have the big kids with us, it's easier for us to have our couple time and date time. 

Julia: What about step parenting prepared you for being a parent and what is totally different?

Lauren: think when you start spending more time with children, you realize how important patience is and staying calm and not getting triggered. Leora and Judah. I'm, I'm their third parent so to speak. They have two primary parents and I'm their third parent. And their safety in that. So the difference of the Sophie, I would just say, uh, I worry there's, uh, An anxiety or worry that I had never experienced before in my life. And when I became a mother of Sophie, that's kind of what felt different. You know, she was a baby, she was very vulnerable. It was me, like I was the first stop. And that is what felt different about parenting Leora and Judah. I have a specific role, like my role with them is very nurturing. It's, you know, they come to me when they need me. They also have two other great options to go to. And at this stage with Sophie being and so young, I'm often the first stop and that feels, that feels different.

Julia: Becoming a biological parent has also shown Lauren that while her duties as a step-mom are different, her dedication to all the kids is the same. 

Lauren: Just like any parent takes their parenting role seriously, I take my llama role just as seriously. It's such an important part of who I am, and these kids are gonna be a part of my life, my entire life. You know, I met Juta when he was four. It will be hard for him to remember a time when he didn't know me. And so when people ask me, are they your kids? Hell yeah, they're my kids. I'm raising them. 

And that is not any exclusion to their mother who birthed them, who raises them, who they have a secure, loving relationship with. And I think that's also what makes a blended family in my situation easier is there's no competition. There's no mom versus step mom. They have a wonderful relationship with their mom. They have a wonderful relationship with me and their dad. And I feel like people always want to kind of like pit the women against each other. And I think that in more cases than not, it is actually not that contentious. 

Julia: As we’ve established, a big part of refamulating is letting go of expectations. Most of us have ideas about what we want our family to look like. But the universe doesn’t always give us what we want. Sometimes it gives us something even more wonderful than what we expected. 

Dan: It's not really the life I envisioned when I was 20 years old, but it's a wonderful life and the kids are happy, healthy kids that love me, um, and love their, their step mom, their llama, uh, and have a lot of loving people around them. And so to me, that's a, that's a huge success and something I'm super proud of. 

I'm super proud of, of Lauren for being such a rock in their lives. And, um, really, there are situations that have come up where, uh, the kids actually go to Lauren to confide before they come to me or their mom. And so, uh, the role she plays for them is, is just got, um, is just so beneficial for them. And I'm proud of me, for kind of evolving and growing to a point where she would find me attractive and actually be willing to be my partner. Because, like I tell her, five years ago, or seven years ago, I was a very different person, and if we had met in our twenties, it would not have been a match.

Julia: I asked both Lauren and Dan, five years into blending their family, what advice they would give to someone else creating a blended family.

Dan: your kids are smart, and don't, don't try and hide to them. You don't, you don't have to show them every single card in the deck. But, uh, no matter what age they are, They're smart and they want to know what's going on and you just got to sit down and be real with them. They don't deserve to be your emotional punching bag, um, but they are along that journey with you and they do deserve to, to know what's going on and to know the people in your life and to know how you're feeling and to ask them how they're feeling and get their input. It doesn't mean you're going to do whatever your six year old kid says, but it's important to listen to them. And, and understand how they're feeling. 

Lauren: I remember Googling, you know, dating a man with kids when I got together with Dan and it was so negative. It was women saying run the other direction. And I think there is a lot of negativity out there about joining families. And I just needed to forge my own path with it. Because becoming their llama has been one of the greatest joys and delights of my life.

Lauren: I have many single girlfriends who I think would still be hesitant to enter into a blended family and it has worked out so beautifully for me that I can't help to be an evangelist on the topic because if you are in your mid to late thirties, early forties, and you're wanting a family. A lot of your options out there, the dating pool may be divorced men. And so I'm saying do not overlook them. A lot of divorced fathers have grown their nurturing muscles. They have been through a hard time. They know what they want. They're not afraid of commitment. And I've had friends say they're hesitant because they're not sure they need to come first and they're worried the kids will come first or they feel, how will they ever feel prioritized and loved enough?

You don't just get love from your partner, you're going to get love from the children too. If you enter into the family in a healthy, welcoming way and that love expands. And so I think it's so beautiful that when I entered in this relationship, my heart grew, not just for one person, but for three. And that's awesome. And I think. If more people can experience that, then it, there wouldn't be so much stigma for successful single woman to partner with a divorced dad because They're awesome. And of course, there are going to be some situations that are trickier dealing with Exes dealing with kids that might not be excited that their parent is dating So I understand that that exists I don't think there's enough emphasis on that possibility of that exponential love.