01: My Big, Gay, Blended Family

Host Julia Winston came up with the word “refamulating” when she became an egg donor in her late 30s. But when she really thought about what it means to redefine family, she realized her family of origin already did that back in the 90s.

Her dad came out as gay when Julia was seven, her parents divorced, and the four of them had to completely re-frame what they thought their family would be. A lot has happened in the 30 years since, and in this episode Julia, her mom, dad and sister talk about it.

Episode transcript is below. Transcripts may not appear in their final form.

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Julia Winston: On January 3, 2022 I read an email that changed my life. 

I was eating dinner at a restaurant in Mexico on the tail end of a fun and rejuvenating trip with a group of friends. I’d spent the last week in holiday mode, meeting new people, dancing at parties, hiking in caves. It was the last big dinner, and I was starting to emerge from the haze of vacation so I decided to check my email. 

I scrolled past some work emails I would need to respond to…eventually. There were lots of promotional emails I would need to delete. And then I saw a note from an old acquaintance. We’d been friendly years ago, but since I moved back to Texas, we hadn’t kept in touch.

The subject said: “Saying hi, and posing an idea.” 

Curious, I clicked on the message and saw a long email with his husband cc’d. I started skimming: 

“We’re thinking hard about starting a family…. We've been brainstorming women in our lives and we keep thinking about you and what an incredible story you have with your own family. We keep thinking: wouldn't Julia be an amazing person to ask if she’d give us the greatest possible gift?

The greatest possible gift…

My heart skipped a beat. The noise of the restaurant around me went silent as I tried to wrap my head around what they were asking me. I mean, I knew we always liked each other, but I didn’t know they liked me enough to ask for my DNA. 

In the past, when I’d thought about the concept of donating eggs my knee jerk reaction had been, “HELL NO! That’s not for me.” Those are my eggs!

The image in my head when it came to my fertility was that I would meet a nice Jewish guy and have children of my own. I wanted to make the heteronormative, nuclear family I always wanted but never had.

My eggs symbolized my future baby - my future family.

And yet… 

Here I was, 37-years-old on vacation with a group of other mostly single, child-free adults. Not with a family of my own. Far from the fantasy I’d always had about where I thought I’d be at this point.

For years, I’d been working hard to shed the shoulds I’d carried around for most of my life - “I should be in a relationship, it should be with a guy, he should be Jewish, we should have kids,” -  and what was left was just me: a woman with love to give, looking for people to share it with. 

I’d felt so much anxiety about whether or not I’d meet someone and have a family of my own. But this invitation made me realize I could bring life into the world, and create a family- just in a way I hadn’t imagined before.

So as I read that email, I was surprised to feel joy, relief and hope. Suddenly I saw a new pathway materialize right in front of me. 

Right there in that moment at the dinner table, my soul screamed, “HELL YES! This is for me.” 

Welcome to Refamulating, a show where we explore different ways to make a family.

I’m your host, Julia Winston. I’m passionate about this topic of creating family in new ways for a few reasons: like I just mentioned, I’m an egg donor to a gay couple. You can hear all about my experience as an egg donor in Episode zero in our feed. 

But also…. I grew up in a non-nuclear family. My parents divorced in 1991, when I was 7, because my dad came out as gay. At the time, gay parents and blended families weren’t the norm, and I often felt ashamed of what my family looked like. 

But so much has changed in the 30 years since my dad came out. Queer people are more empowered to be out and have families. Many adults are more comfortable choosing not to have kids or..have kids without a partner. In the last generation, the norms around family have shifted so much, but often when you’re the person making the new choice, you can feel so alone. 

When I chose to donate my eggs to the couple I lovingly refer to as the egg daddies, I started doing research on non-hetero normative families and heard some statistics that made me feel more seen:

The number of Americans who are unmarried or unpartnered has grown to almost half of all adults. And the majority of children live in non-nuclear households: their guardians are unmarried, divorced, LGBTQ, OR the kids are being raised by someone besides their parents.

All this to say, the nuclear family, with two, heterosexual parents in their first marriage, raising kids, is no longer the dominant family structure. 

In fact, there is no one dominant family structure. 

In the last 50 years we’ve completely reformulated what a modern, American family looks like. We’ve been refamulating – my new word, feel free to steal – and it feels like we’re reaching a crescendo. 

The intention behind this podcast is to keep normalizing families that break this nuclear mold. I want all of us to feel less alone in whatever paths we’re taking when it comes to starting a family. We’re here to talk to real people with nuanced stories that census data could never tell us.  

In this first episode, I want to tell the story of my family of origin and how we shifted from a nuclear family with a mom, a dad, and two kids, to the big, gay, blended family we are today. Our story is filled with love, but also pain and secrecy and eventually… acceptance. 

That’s what Refamualting is all about. Accepting, and embracing, family in all its forms.

My family is an example of how messy it can be to do something new but also how rewarding the payoff can be. 

I grew up in Austin, but moved away for most of my adult life. A couple of years ago, I decided to move back during the pandemic to be near my family. Including my sister Molly, who lives just down the street from me. 
Julia: So go ahead and introduce yourself however you want.

Molly: Okay. Well, hey, I'm Molly Winston. I am Julia's younger, 34 year old sister, living in Austin, Texas, and happy to be here. 

Julia: When I decided to tell the story of my family in this first episode, I was surprised when both of my parents and my sister said yes to an interview. Over the years, I’ve gotten the sense that we’ve all done our own healing around my parent’s divorce and my dad coming out. But…we’ve never actually talked about it. 

Julia: So before I sat down to dig into the past with my parents, I wanted to hear Molly’s perspective. The trauma around how our family changed was so formative for me, and I wanted to know how it shaped her.  

Julia: so Molly, I guess my first question is, what are some of the things you love most about our family?

Molly: Our family, well, they're unique.That's what I love about us. And we're open, we're funny, we're interesting. Like people when they're on the outside looking in, it can be a lot, it can be really overwhelming, but that's one of my favorite things about our families that we are overwhelming.

Julia: how would you describe our relationship? 

Molly: Oh, sisters forever. 

Julia: What's that pillow that mom has? It's like, I smile because you're my sister. I laugh cuz there's nothing you can do about it.

Molly: Yeah. It's that , it's that pillow. 

Julia: Nowadays we’re pretty close. But growing up, that was not the case. 

Molly: Our relationship was terrible for about, I'd give it 18 to 19 years.

Julia: Yeah, like, like I think about the time, I mean, there's so many, like, I remember you being a bitch, honestly in, in a hot tub and me throwing ice cubes at your head. Or maybe it was vice versa, I don't know. But yeah, it was marked by lots of violence. We'll put it that way. 

Julia: You had a move. You had a move that I called the cockroach . I would, I would approach you to hit or kick and you were on your back on the floor with your legs and arms. A kimbo just pushing away, squirming around like a dying cockroach on the ground. And honestly it was a really effective strategy because it was, I couldn't get to you

I have to apologize for taking all of my dolls and throwing them in your room every night before bed. Because the reason I did that was I saw Chucky and I thought my dolls were gonna kill me in the middle of the night.And so I threw them in your room. Might as as well, will kill you. 

Molly: Might as well kill me. 

Julia: and they never did, much to my chagrin.

Julia: But during our childhood, in between the slapping and fighting over typical big and little sister stuff, our family went through a huge change. Our parents got divorced when I was 7 and Molly was 3. Our dad moved into his own place and we split our time between his house and our mom’s. 

When they split, they did not explain why to Molly and I. We didn’t know our Dad was going through a huge personal change, that he was starting a new relationship with a man. 

For a couple years all we saw was that our mom was heart broken, and our dad had a roommate named Mitchell.

Molly and I lived in that confusion and secrecy together. The wool was pulled over both of our eyes, but as we got older, we both started to uncover the truth. 

Molly: Like I knew that dad lived with a man, but I thought, yo Tbh, I thought Mitchell was the maid until I was seven years old. Okay. That is so fucking embarrassing. He was just really compulsive about cleaning.

Julia: Yeah. Super anal retentive and compulsive. And I, you know, dad and Mitchell never showed any kind of affection towards each other, so I was like, oh yeah, they're just like totally chill roommates. And that guy's, the maid, also, they had different bedrooms. 

I mean, I remember this, I was confused because I knew there was more going on. Granted I was four years older than you. I knew that they were in some kind of relationship. I could feel that. But they lived, they had two separate bedrooms, but one bed was always made. Mitchell's bed was always made. They clearly slept together in dad's room, but no one ever talked about that. It was just this like weird elephant in the room.

And I never asked anyone about it, but it was, and I couldn't talk to you about it. You were too young. I was too young. 

Molly: And also I, I'm sure I've told you this story, but there was one time I was in the car with dad and I was like second or third grade. And I remember hearing on the play scape, like a kid calling another kid gay or like, that's gay, you're gay.

So I asked Dad , and again, I didn't know anything had to do with anything. And I was like, dad, are you gay?  because I heard it on the playground. I was like, yeah, I know what this means. You just asked him straight up. And he was like, well, honey. And it like turned into a big conversation and I was like, whoa.

Like whoa. That's not what I meant . But like thanks for the info. Didn't mean for you to just like smash open my whole world. Yeah. Shit. And then I remember being in like, Yeah, I think I was really ashamed of it.

Julia: We had a similar experience. I learned that dad was gay because I saw some kids, uh, like wrestling during recess, two boys. And someone was like, that's so gay. And I was like, what does gay mean? And my friend was like, you don't know what gay means. So I already felt ashamed cuz I was like, oh, I'm behind on something.

Mm-hmm. . And she said, it's when guys like, like each other.  and I immediately, I was like, oh my God, that's my dad. And I, I went home and I asked mom about it. You were too young at the time. I was like 10, so I guess you were maybe six. Mm-hmm. . And we were at dinner and I asked mom, I was like, mom, is dad gay?

And she like dropped her fork, mid bite and in shock. And so I knew it was true and I felt sick to my stomach and I ran to the bathroom and I thought I was gonna puke. And then I think she came and had the talk with me.

But isn't that interesting that we were all, you're in the closet with your family. Mm-hmm.  If there isn't like a definitive moment where it's like if either you're not raised with everybody just fully understanding and talking transparently about it, or they're being a definitive moment, and mom and dad made it they made a choice for us to just find out, to keep it quiet. 

Molly: And you know what's bizarre is, like I was saying earlier, like our family's so open, we talk about everything. But when we were growing up, we did not. No. It was, we were a family of secrets and you were a family of secrets. And it's very, you know, and you learn.

And if anybody's ever been in any kind of, um, recovery program, the one of the baselines is secrets keep you sick. Secrets make you sick. And I think that a lot of our childhood might have been plagued by a bit of dysfunction from the secret keeping. 

Julia: Keeping secrets and living in secret is a disease, a disease my whole family suffered from. But there was a turning point seven years ago, when Molly was in treatment out of town for drug/alcohol abuse.  

Molly: I will say that when I got older, when I went, when I went to treatment and we as a family had to sit down and be real with each other. Yeah. Yeah. That was a good starting place. Oh my God. Molly, you, you going, I think I accidentally kicked the door wide open with that. I think you did. That's actually, 

Julia: God, that's so fascinating. That was the first time the four of us got together. Just the four of us since we were a family unit. Mm-hmm.  and y'all actually stayed together. I remember at an Airbnb, like as a family and I was so jealous that I couldn't be with y'all doing that. I know, I know. And I was really sad that you couldn't be with us.

I also was like really appreciative that I got that time with mom and dad and I mean, you're being in treatment and the exercises that your recovery center made us all do together was like such a gift for all of us. 

Molly: Yeah. And you know what? That actually started Dad on his journey of being able to say what he was feeling very openly. Like he would come to me and he would use the framework that he learned in treatment. 

Julia: Yeah. It's really amazing. I mean, isn't it just like you just never know when some of these really challenging experiences are actually huge gifts. 

Julia: How did you feel about being in a blended family as a kid? Were you ever teased, were you embarrassed to tell others that your dad was gay? 

Molly: Yeah, very embarrassed. Um, and I think a lot of my childhood, I kind of blocked out a bit because I was so embarrassed by my home life.

Julia: Yeah. I felt the same way. And that was kind of how I, I gauged who my real friends were, were the people who'd, who accepted and loved me.

Julia: While Molly and I went through all of this at the same time, it didn’t feel like we were in it together. She’s four years younger than me, and that’s a big difference when you’re kids. The role I assigned myself was to try and protect her from the hurt of the situation.

Instead, I really relied on my friends. One of the friends I felt truly accepted and loved by was Ellana. We’ve been best friends since we were four, and she was one of the few people I could talk to about my parents splitting up. And then, when we were 12…her mom also came out as gay. All of a sudden someone I trusted could empathize with me, and I didn’t feel so alone anymore. 

Even better, her dad and my mom, the two straight parents, started dating and when we were 16 they got married. 

My best friend became my step-sister, which helped me feel more proud of my family, which at this point was starting to feel like a big, Jewish gay Brady bunch. 

But that also meant that I wasn’t talking to Molly about any of this. I was just talking to Ellana. I was probably still hoping one of my dolls would murder Molly in the middle of the night. 

It wasn’t until Molly was in rehab that we finally addressed the shared pain of our upbringing. 

Julia: You know, I remember feeling a sort of quiet exhilaration when that was happening, because I think I knew that this was just taking us to a new level. 

Molly: Yeah. Like a new level of like a family therapy that like we didn't ask for, but was kind of forced upon us. But that was kind of necessary.

Julia: It was necessary…and when we finished the interview I felt so appreciative and closer to her. 

Which made me wonder..what would a direct conversation with my parents make me feel? When we come back, we hear from my dad.  

Julia: One year on Father's Day, I think I gave you a card that was like, thank you so much for being my dad. Thank you for giving me life. And what was it you said? 

Jaron: I said, oh, it was nothing. Just a little squirt (laughter)

Julia: This is my dad, Jaron. He is, in one word, outrageous. 

For example, on a recent Sunday afternoon I got invited to a dance party in a warehouse, and I invited my dad. The room was filled with people in their 20s and 30s, slowly swaying and bopping their heads in their trendy outfits and wide brimmed hats. 

But right there twirling in the middle of the dance floor is Jaron, 67 years old, wearing athletic clothes from Target. The DJ dubbed him MVP of the dance party, and I agreed wholeheartedly. 

Because my dad is the life of every party. He’s sassy, irreverent and can find humor in any situation. 

But as my family has healed, we’ve learned that his humor is also a defense mechanism. He’s a geriatric psychiatrist, and that’s a heavy job. Humor and sarcasm has helped him compartmentalize the emotional strain of working with Alzheimer’s patients.

We’ve all followed his lead- humor is my family’s favorite tool when things feel hard. I often joke that I’m glad he didn’t come out as gay right away because otherwise I wouldn’t exist. 

That’s where I started our interview together- his desire to have a family. 

Julia:  When you were young, what did you envision for yourself when you thought about your family of the future?

Jaron: I mean, I wanted a family. Um, family was all important.

Julia: And what did that mean? You know, literally.

Jaron: I mean, literally it would, it, it would mean that I married a woman and that I had kids. 

Jaron: I had known your mother, I think since day o ne of college, which was 1973. 

Julia: But she moved away for a few years after college. And when she got back to Texas, they reconnected.

Jaron: We saw each other, got back together at her Best Friend's wedding, then we dated for a while until I really was, um, it was getting more and more intense and more and more, um, serious.

And I just couldn't tolerate it. I felt like I had to go. Uh, I had to go see about my gayness and I broke her heart. I broke the relationship off, and, uh, and she went and, uh, and did her own thing in Houston for a while. I went to Connecticut, uh, to do training in psychiatry and, uh, was, was really seeing men and women at the time.

And, um, uh, and AIDS came on the scene around the same time. And, uh, my cousin, uh, Alan eventually died of aids and I decided, you know what? If I can have it either way with men or women, I wanted to be with a woman. I wanted a family.

I wanted kids. I'd always wanted a family, wanted kids. Family was all important. And your mother and I really loved each other, and we loved each other's families.

And so it was really, really hard to initially break it off with her. And it was really, really wonderful to get back with her because I never thought it would happen.

Julia: During their time apart, my mom knew my dad was bisexual. And when they got back together, he told her he could choose and he wanted to be with her. So they got married and six weeks later they were pregnant with me. 

Jaron: So you came along pretty quickly and I realized afterwards that at least at the time, it's like, uh, wow, I guess I cemented myself in a heterosexual relationship and because I wasn't going to do anything different, I basically went back in the closet for several years. And then Molly came along and around that same time, I couldn't control what was going on with me inside anymore. I've known I was gay since I was probably five or six years old.

Jaron: your mother and I were in therapy. We were in couples therapy talking about being honest. And one day I just said, I, I can't do this anymore. I want to be with a man and broke her heart for a second time.

And I still feel bad about that. But, um, you know, my philosophy at the time was right or wrong. That I was the child of a very unhappy marriage. My parents were very unhappy from the time I was born. They were unhappy the day I was born. I couldn't tolerate that in my own relationship. And so I had to find  something that felt it fit for me. And I knew that I was never going to abandon anybody. I just had to go my own way sexually.

I knew that I could still have my family. It just wasn't gonna be a traditional intact family. And of course, 50% of families wind up in divorce too. And, you know, I've worried that psychologically I was going to damage you kids by divorcing. But on the other hand, the feeling of damaging you all, if I stayed in a marriage that I just couldn't be in anymore, was gonna be even worse for everybody. My unhappiness would've been worse for everybody I felt.

Julia: What made you sad? 

Jaron: Well, that I left her and I didn't want to, never would have, but I couldn't be honest about my sexuality for years. basically gay people learn, not to be honest. You can't be honest with yourself and you can't be honest with other people.

You don't want to be attacked. You don't want to be, uh, criticized. You don't want to be killed, so you learn how to stuff it and shove it and not be real, and not be honest and, and not be who you truly are. Some people, you know, don't have a problem with that, they're just out. And I think as the years have gone by, certainly younger men have a whole lot easier time, uh, than my generation did.

Julia: What was it like? To be a dad and raise kids as a gay man in Texas in the 1990s?

Jaron: You know, I guess looking back, it wasn't that bad. I was in Austin, Texas, which was a much better place to come out  than, you know, Odessa or Midland or, you know, uh, anywhere else, or, or Bohunk, Texas. Uh, so I knew I was in a liberal place and that most people were gonna be just fine with it, and they were, and at my job in my office, I mean, Nobody said anything about it.

I don't know that they were comfortable, but they didn't say anything about it. And so life kind of went on as usual. I think the hardest thing for me was, being a single parent, it was not easy. Every time I got you all, it was, um, okay, what am I gonna do with them for the few days to keep you busy or to keep you interested or, you know, do interesting things with you. And of course, that led to ‘Well, you're the good time dad’. That's what your mom would say.

I mean, it was really in the service of having a relationship with you all and taking care of kids. I mean, you know, go places and do things. And then taking you back home was always really terrible. I mean, it was sad. Sometimes you all didn't want to go home. Sometimes you wanted to go home to mom's, you know?

Julia: Not only was he a single dad, but right after the divorce, he started a new relationship. 

Jaron: I did meet my first partner, Mitchell, and he helped me rear you all really. For better or worse. I don't think you liked him very much at first. 

Julia: Not at first, but then later, man, he and I got really close. 

Jaron: You got really close. He was your confidant. 

Julia: Mitchell became one of my favorite people. When I first met him as a little, Jewish girl, all I could see was that he looked like a real life Ken doll, with blonde hair and blue eyes. I thought he was gorgeous. I could tell he made my dad happy, and eventually he made me happy. He was a source of light in my life who felt sparkly and fun. When I was a rebellious teenager, he came to my rescue when I got in trouble for drinking and partying. He brought optimism and cheer to my life, which I came to really appreciate the older I got. 

My senior year of college, he was diagnosed with kidney cancer. He died a year later. 

Jaron: What was the most painful experience from your childhood? Of me leaving the family?

Julia:  The most painful part of this journey for me was when Mitchell died. And the thing that made it so painful was not just that he died, but it was that the day he died was the day I found out that he was HIV positive.

And the reason I found that out was because you told me, but you told me in a way that was like in a sort of like sobbing, crying mess after your love of your life died, you were ranting about the H I V and how that was what killed him in the end, even though it was cancer and I, it was like, it was like the rug was pulled out from under me all over again.

It was like this whatever trauma I did experience as a young child from finding out a secret that actually had a huge impact on my life. it was that happening all over again with this other thing. And then I was afraid that you were HIV positive and I was convinced that you were what? Lying to me to protect me all over again.

I was afraid that you were gonna die of h hiv aids and that I was gonna, that I couldn't handle it. That I wouldn't be able to handle it. And you knew that. And so I thought you were gonna, I thought that you were lying to me to protect me from completely having a psychotic break. The day that I, Mitchell had already just died. It was the hardest day of my life. 

Julia: Thankfully, my dad never was HIV-positive. But it took me a few years to really accept that he wasn’t lying to me. My dad eventually fell in love again with his current husband Jeffery.

One of the things they love to do together is travel.

Julia: So recently you went on a gay cruise and  one gay cruise, many gay cruise. Recently you went on many gay cruises and you had a bit of a revelatory moment. Can you tell us about that moment? 

Jaron: Yeah. So I'm on this gay cruise with 4,000 gay men. And it's at one of the dances and it's outside on the deck. And I just looked out at everybody and I was up against a post and I just was bawling and I was bawling because it was, I was so happy that all these people, all these guys could just be themselves.

And I wished that I could have been able to do that when I was young. What was amazing was this one guy. He came up to me and he embraced me and he said, it's because of you all that we're here. Because I was feeling really old and, I was happy and I was sad, uh, but it was a very powerful moment.

Jaron: I would've come out a whole lot sooner, but I wouldn't, and maybe I would've had a family eventually, you know, somehow, but like people are doing now. But, um, but you know, the reality is, is that it happened the way it happened and I, I'm very thankful and I love you all tremendously. And, um, you know, just the journey continues.

Julia: I have spent years thinking about my dad coming out and how it’s impacted our lives. He’s always been at the center of this story: it was his decision to come out that changed our family forever. It was his secrets we had to untangle years later. 

I’ve also celebrated the good that came from my dad’s decision - like my relationship with Mitchell. Or…if they hadn’t gotten divorced, my mom wouldn’t have married my best friend’s dad. We all get together on holidays and everyone has a good relationship, so from the outside looking in, it seems like a beautiful success story of divorce. And let’s be real, we’ve had 30 years to get our shit together. 

Which is why I was a little surprised during my interview with my dad, to hear pain in his voice when he talked about hurting my mom all those years ago. 

It was a reminder that her maturity and resilience that really kept our family together. We wouldn’t be able to have a cohesive, blended family if it weren’t for her.

And I probably wouldn’t even be doing this podcast if it wasn’t for her. 

So when we come back, I talk to my mom. 

Julia: Cathy Schechter is a force of nature. 

Cathy: And dad was like, you know, I'm waiting for you to write the book. And I'm like, I don't wanna define myself by this experience. This is not, I mean, it's an experience, but it's not the defining moment of my life. There have been other defining moments, and this is just something that it's, it's a, it's a decision that I made, um, to marry him.

Julia: This is a woman born in the 1950s, saying marriage doesn’t define her. My mom is a lot of things- wise, authentic, compassionate - but most of all, she’s a badass. 

When I was in my early 20s, I worked at her market research firm. One day, my direct supervisor was stressing me out and I went into my mom’s office to tell her. She was sitting behind her big desk, with her glasses resting on the edge of her nose, and after I finished complaining she pushed up her glasses and said “Julia, is anyone dying?” I said no. She responded with “Then don’t worry about it. Just do what you can.”

That’s how she approaches many things in life: she calls challenging moments AFGEs…which stands for Another Fucking Growth Experience. She’s taught me that there are no mistakes, only lessons. 

She’s been such a role model for me - she cares deeply about the collective, she’s curious, and she’s a master storyteller, whether it was for public health campaigns or as a teacher of ancient Jewish texts.  

When I was a kid, she wrote a book about the history of Jewish people in Texas, based on our family history. This desire to mine for meaning within family clearly rubbed off on me.

But I was nervous to tell her about this podcast. I’ve explored my family’s story through creative projects before, and that didn’t go over well with my mom. So it took me months to muster up the courage to ask her to do this interview.

But….she agreed. 

Julia: First of all, how did you find out about dad being gay and then. How did that play a part in your marriage and the ending of your marriage?

Cathy: I knew that dad had had same sex partners when we got married. I, I'd known that about him for a long time and we had actually explored that together. Um, and the masters in Johnson's, you know, there's this, this continuum of sexual The Kinzie scale. Yeah. The Kinzie scale, whatever it was. And, you know, and Dad's assurance was, yeah, I'm attracted to, to both men and women, but, but you're the person I wanna marry.

And I believed him. Why wouldn't I? Um, so it wasn't an issue when we were married, you know, finding out that dad was gay. It was an issue of me discovering that Dad had betrayed our marriage and that he had fallen in love with someone else. 

Julia: And for you, how much did it matter that the other person was a man

Cathy: at the time, time? you know, I think, I thought that it was probably easier than it would be for a woman who gets left for a younger woman or for a more beautiful woman, or a richer woman or whatever. I mean, it was like, I, how could I compete with another man if he wanted another man? I mean, that was just something I could never do or be.

Julia: how did you feel when you decided to get a divorce?

Cathy: I felt very sad. I didn't want it. I didn't wanna be single again. I didn't wanna lose your father. I didn't wanna lose our dream, The family life. Um, so I was angry. Um, the rug got pulled out from under me. You know, here we had these two children together and I just, I was really angry with him.

Julia: how did you and dad end up repairing your relationship to get us to the point where we are today?

Cathy: I had done my research and I understood that children of divorce are more wounded by fighting and nastiness than they are by the divorce itself.

And so even though I was angry, I knew that I had to, find a way to keep our family together and, and in order to do that, I was gonna have to get my shit together and,I was gonna have to put my big girl panties on.

Julia: How the hell did you do that, mom? Seriously? Like when I do really try to sit in your shoes and think about what this whole process was like, from your perspective and what you must have gone through, which I'll never fully, I'll never be able to know that. No one will ever know but you, but how did you get through this?

Cathy: it was an exercise in self-control.I learned a lot about being human and I learned a lot about love. What I learned about love was that the better part of loving your father was gonna have to be loving who he really is and not who I wanted him to be. Um, and so I didn't get my way.That was just the way it was. And so I couldn't change it. I couldn't control it. 

Cathy: I feel proud of it because I feel that when dad and I were getting a divorce, there was the sense in on both sides of the family that they should not like the other one. That we should all be get mad. My parents and my aunts and uncles who were all prepared to really hate Jerry, I was like, we're not gonna do that.

This is not who we're going to be. He's Julia and Molly's father. And make no mistake, I was mad as hell at him. I mean, he broke my heart. He betrayed me. He betrayed our dream, the dream that we had together. But I loved him then, and I love him still.

Julia: I look so admirably at you for how you handled that. And there's so much that I'll never know about. I really think, and I've heard dad say before too, that you, so much of the reason that we are still so connected is because of you. It's probably all because of you actually. 

But there was a moment when you could have, I mean, you were the deciding person. You could have said, I don't wanna be around this person. But there was obviously something bigger that you had in mind, even in the moment that you felt heartbroken.

It's almost like you chose that bigger love or that bigger perspective over the feelings you had at the time. What was going on for you?

Cathy: I wanted my children to have a family. I didn't want them to, I didn't want you, I didn't want you and Molly to have a life, that was where you had to choose. I wanted you to have what I had.

And you know, that was, I remember one night sitting outside on the back porch, right outside my bedroom. Remember that? There's a big tree, big sycamore tree. Beautiful. It was a beautiful spot. And looking up at the stars and talking to God and saying, I have no control over anything.

I, now, what am I supposed to do? Just guide me. And that's when my career took the turn that it took. And I spent the next 25 years educating women about you were empowering women. I was empowering women. That was my path.

I had to set aside whatever romantic relationship we ever had had. And I had to start looking at him, not as a husband, but as the father of my children. And this was the father that, by the way, I wanted to, you know, I mean, . I wanted a partner in raising my kids, and then I also kind of got Mitchell in the bargain. Who sometimes did more than your dad did, you know. Who sometimes rose to the occasion so beautifully. Um, it just took time. It took time.

Julia: Yeah. What, when you look back at Mitchell and the role he played in our family and your relationship with him, what do you remember most?

Cathy: Mitchell was the only person who, who got doses of my rage other than your dad. So I'd left a really angry message one time and Mitchell was on the receiving end and he said, you ought really hear yourself. But you know, as their relationship went on through the years, he began to understand why I would be so angry with your dad.

And I loved Mitchell and I, I, I was grateful to him. he always complained, that we weren't teaching our kids to be clean or we to need enough and, you know, all their clothes and you, he hated that I'd throw my towels all over the floor.

So, you know, ultimately he became sort of the third person in the marriage.

And you know, and I appreciated that about him. He took the role seriously. And when he was dying, you know, for those, those months, those really horrible months, you know, I, I was there for him. And we had a good ending.

Julia: One of the things that is very top of mind to me at this point in my life, is the idea of having children. Neither my sister nor I have kids and I know this is tough for my mom, who loves being a grandmother to her husband's grandson and would love to have more.

Julia: Does it make you sad that neither of us have kids? 

Cathy: A little bit, yeah.

Julia: I have this story and I know you know that I have this story about you, that you want to be a grandmother, and I mean, I know that's true, but I think the weight I've put on that story that you never asked me to put on is that I am a disappointment somehow because I've not delivered children to make you a grandmother. What do you think about that story?

Cathy: I think the story's not over. And  what I've told myself is that if I never have my own grandchildren, you know will have hopefully left a legacy somehow on the world.

And if you don't have kids, you still have some obligation to leave a little bit of yourself behind, whether through students or the people that you touch, the children that you touch.

You know the things that you produce in this world to take people to a place where they can bring hope and repair to the world. And I believe that both of you are capable of doing that, whether you have children or not. But you do have an obligation. I won't let up on that . 

Julia: Well, it's why I'm doing this podcast.

Is there anything else you want to say just to feel complete with the conversation?

Cathy: You know, despite everything, when Molly was going through rehab and we had that moment where the four of us embraced each other, I didn't want it to end. And in that way, I don't think I've ever really gotten over it. I'm not sure that I ever will, but what we have is good enough. 

Julia: Thank you so much for how you've handled everything, and I know it's not perfect. We've all, you know, had our hard times. Um, but I think you've done a phenomenal job. , and I'm saying it in front of, I don't know who's listening to this. I don't know if this part is even gonna make it into the podcast, but I'm just saying like, it doesn't matter.

Cathy: I don't need credit. I know, I know. And I'm proud. I'm proud of our family. 

Julia: Hell yeah. No one else like us out there. 

Cathy: Oh. I think there are people like us out there that have had a journey where they just figured out that it's easier to love, it's just easier and healthier to love.

Julia: These conversations with my family were incredibly cathartic for me. The interview format gave me the opportunity to talk to them directly about things we never would have talked about on our own, which for me has unlocked another level of healing and acceptance. 

My parents divorce started with shame and secrets, but decades later I see how much we’ve loved and respected each other through an intense process of refamulation and I’m so proud of how resilient we are. 

Now I begin a new process of refamulating, this time as an egg donor, and I’m drawing from my past to inform my future. I’ve learned from my family of origin that transparency matters, different is beautiful, and doing something new doesn’t have to mean doing it alone. 

That’s why I’m creating this podcast. I want to shine a light on people who are courageous enough to create their families in ways that align with who they truly are and what they truly want.

If that resonates with you, I’d say you are refamulating and I’m so happy you’re here. You might know what you want your family to look like, but don’t know how to make it happen. Or maybe you think there isn’t a way for you to have the family you want. Maybe you have no idea what family means to you, or maybe you have a family and don’t see any others that look like yours.

All of these scenarios can feel lonely - trust me, I know - but they don’t have to. There’s no one else out there like you and your family, but there are a lot of people trying to figure it out, just like you. Just like me. 

So let’s do it together.