13: Don’t Tell Mom: Grieving the “living death” of family estrangement

When Emily was a child, a family member abused her and told her to keep it a secret. She kept that secret until she was 34, but her family didn’t react well. Eventually Emily chose to stop talking to them, and in this episode she explains her choice to be estranged from her family and why estrangement was important to her healing.

__________________________________________________________

Episode transcript is below. Transcripts may not appear in their final form.
__________________________________________________________

Julia Winston: We opened the season by exploring the idea that the American Dream, especially when it comes to family, doesn’t work for everybody. Today’s episode is an example of that. This story talks about childhood sexual abuse. Please listen with care. 

Julia Winston: I'm Julia Winston, and this is Refamulating, a show that explores different ways to make a family. 

This week is Thanksgiving. In the U.S., this is the unofficial start to the holiday season. For the next six weeks, we will all be running around preparing for whatever holidays we may celebrate between now and the new year. For many of us, this is a frenzied time of year as we try to get gifts, plan travel and navigate all the family dynamics we'll be dropping into. 

This can also be a tough time of year for people who have complicated relationships with family. Whether they see their family or not, the holidays can be a reminder of what they don't have. Emily is someone who won't be seeing any blood relatives this week. 

Emily: Unfortunately I am estranged from my immediate family at the moment. I think for me estrangement is kind of like a day to day decision and I'm not ready to not be yet if that ends up being an option at some point. 

Julia Winston: Today we’re gonna hear the story about why Emily is estranged from her family of origin, and how the choice to distance herself has thrown her into a journey of refamulating. 

I've seen Emily's estrangement unfold up close, in real time. I’ve known her for more than 20 years. We went to college together and she’s been one of my best friends ever since.

Emily: I feel like we've really like watched each other grow up, which has been such a delight. Um, but also filled with, you know, real life. So it hasn't all just been like fun and giggling. Although there's been plenty of that. We've also seen each other cry a lot.

Julia Winston: A lot. And we've cried together a lot with and for each other.

Julia Winston: One of the things I’ve cried about the most with Emily is the reason she’s estranged from her family, and the fact that she’s lost one of the most important people in her life.

Emily: I haven't talked to my mom since like 2017, 2018. 

Julia Winston: But before we get into why, let’s start from the beginning. 

Emily : My dad was an English professor and they got married and they were like, totally like mismatched. Like my mom was like really fun and my dad was like very serious and like academic. Um, so they had my older brother and then four years later they had me. So I was four, they got divorced, um, which I think was like great for my mom. She was like a single mom in the late eighties. Um, what, you know, really hard decision to make and really difficult time in her life, I'm sure.

My dad was extremely bitter about the divorce. Extremely bitter. And my childhood was very much like him yelling at my older brother to like excel in school and like be perfect and very much ignored me. Like 100%. I was just a ghost. He had a lot of rage and I was just always kind of thought he was going to like kill me. Um, like when I would, uh, go to sleep for a certain period, I would really try to get him to say, I'll see you tomorrow because I was sure he was going to kill me overnight. 

Julia Winston: Did he ever, um, direct his anger towards you? Like why did you think he was going to kill you?

Emily : He was just so mad, like all the time, just like cursing under his breath, like a lunatic. Just, clearly needed some SSRIs, you know what I mean? And didn't have access, so, or didn't know about them, I don't know, it was so early. But I interpreted a lack of love as the presence of, like, murderous intent. Um, and a lot of the time at my dad's house, he would just like, get drunk and go to sleep. He ended up dying when I was 15 from cancer, and I was so relieved. I was so relieved when he died. It was, there was not a single part of me that was sad. I was waiting for it. I'm like, get out of here, man. Yeah, it wasn't until like 20 years later that I felt sad that my dad died.

Julia Winston: So that was your relationship with your biological father. Yeah. And what was your relationship like with your mom, your stepfather, and your brothers?

Emily : Yeah, so my mom married my stepdad a year after she got divorced, so I was only five, so my stepdad was in my life you know, from when I was really little. And they together had my little brother. So then we had this, you know, family where my older brother and I would go to my dad's every other weekend and every Wednesday night, like that kind of nineties divorce pattern, which I think you

Julia Winston: Oh, I know it well. Yep. Yep.

Emily : I lived with my mom and stepdad full time with my brothers in the suburbs. So, and I was like, a tomboy with ADD, so I was always like, climbing the tree, or riding my bike, or dribbling the basketball, like I was so hyperactive, um, and spent a lot of time outside at the park. So that was like the setup was like two brothers, divorced parents and kind of going back and forth and like really hated going to my dad's house like every, every Tuesday night and every Thursday night where I'd have to see him the next day I would cry, cry, cry, cry, cry so much to my mom. She was really there for me. And she did the best she could. 

Julia Winston: Something happened when you were a child that led to the estrangement. So what happened, Emily, what happened when you were a kid?

Emily : I think because I was so, like, rejected by my biological father, I had a stepdad. And I'm like, great! You know, another chance at a relationship with a father, kind of a thing. Um, and so he had all these like hobbies and stuff and I would kind of just like tag along and join him and you know, it took a dark turn. The way I describe it is like the nicest thing I can say about my stepdad is he didn't rape me. 

But he definitely molested me when I was I don't know how old I was, but I would think like nine, 10, 11. It was him trying to like get me alone and, and play quote unquote games where he would touch me inappropriately. 

Julia Winston: Like many kids who are abused, Emily didn't really understand what her stepdad was doing. It took many years of therapy as an adult for her to understand that what he’d been doing was sexual abuse. 

Emily : I was just too young. I didn't know what sex was, I didn't know what pleasure was. You know as a child you, you don't know your own body, you don't know what's happening yet. I was eight years old, nine years old, I barely knew my own, you know, private parts, and certainly not male, you know, a male body. Like, I didn't know. So I really interpreted it as like, I felt like special and like the chosen one. He was grooming me. You know, he would bring me presents a lot. And I just felt like, oh, good. You know, I had one dad who ignored me and one dad who didn't ignore me. So like, the world in my head kind of balanced itself. And one night he did, he touched me and I left his room to like, you know, whatever, go to sleep or whatever. And he came in my room and he said,  He said this whole thing has gone too far. Don't tell mom. 

Julia Winston: And Emily didn't. She didn't tell her mom or anyone in her life. She kept that secret for the rest of her childhood. 

Emily : And then from that point on, really, really, really treated me like an ex girlfriend. Like, was such a bitch to me. Was so mean. We fought all the time, like, very inappropriately. Just kind of like a teenager who just didn't have control over his emotions. Imagine  if you were 15 years old and you were living with your ex girlfriend, you'd be mean to them. And so my mom was, like, pretty confused, I think. And she would just, like, watch us fighting all the time.

And he absolutely hated me. He hated me. I had two dads who really didn't like me. But my stepdad, I mean, there was a whole other level to his, like, hatred. Because I used to have to drive him to the train station in the morning before high school, and he just wouldn't say a word, and he would just be seething, seething with anger. And I just remember we would just drive in silence, we'd get to the train station, he would get out of the car, he wouldn't say thank you, he wouldn't say goodbye, he would slam the door, and then I would see him at dinner that night, being an asshole.

Julia Winston: When the abuse started, Emily didn't realize that what was happening was something bad. But as she became a teenager, the demand to "not tell mom" made her feel uneasy. And yet she still couldn’t see the abuse for what it was. Her brain went into protective mode. 

Emily : I put it into a part of my brain that I never looked at. Like I was really good at compartmentalizing, putting it in a box and making sure that I never swiveled my head to that direction. You know what I mean? Like it was just off limits. I love writing my diary and I have since I got my first diary in 1991, and actually one of the first entries in my diary was, I hate my stepdad. And I have no idea why I wrote that. And I wrote, I hate my stepdad. I'm scared for my future. Which is such a sad little thing to see in, like, kid handwriting. Um, but that's what I wrote. And then it's like, you know, I went to the mall today. It's like, it's just like so unhelpful. I'm like, what happened, Emily?

There's an entry when I was in, like, the seventh grade, later, like after it stopped, probably a year after it stopped, where I wrote, like, what's the point of my, of my parent, my stepdad? Like, what's he ever done for me? You know, just like kind of read, like beginning to like rage. And I wrote down, um, I wrote down, he molested me, but then I crossed it out so deeply. I was like, no one will find this out. You know, it was a secret. Don't tell mom went to my bones. I was like, this is going to the grave with me. Like looking back and just being like, why was that a secret? Um, I think it was as mundane as like, did I tell my friends I played video games with my brothers? You know, it just was so part of life. It was not a momentous thing until I realized what it was. 

Julia Winston: Yeah, it's it's almost like it didn't have gravity until he said this has gone too far. Don't tell your mom.

Emily : Yeah. Then it became like, oh, now it's not happening anymore and now instead I have a massive, massive secret and a huge burden. I grew up having to keep a secret from everyone. And what's weird about that kind of creepy, gross secret is the only other person who knows it is your abuser. So you share this incredibly strange, uh, intimate Illegal, criminal activity with someone you hate. And he's the only one in your family who knows. So it kind of bonds you to them because he gets to exist in this family structure because I've listened to him and kept the secret. I didn't know that it was wrong. I was treated like a special friend. And I thought, you know, God was smiling on me., I wasn't religious, but I thought, like, oh, I'm the chosen one. This is a good thing. I did not interpret it as abuse because I didn't know. I was too young.

Julia Winston: Yeah. How did, as you got older, you know, you're going through your teenage years, how did what happened affect your sexuality and your, Your intimacy.

Emily : Yeah. Oh, so, okay. This is an important piece to know. When I got to college, I was like, actually, I want to kiss girls. but I came out when I was 19. But I still felt sexually I was really numb. I was really numb because I was not yet living in my body with all the feelings. 'cause the feelings were attached to memories I didn't wanna look at. So it took a lot of un. earthing feeling in order to get past a lot of the bad and, and start to like date in a healthy way, which I honestly couldn't really do till at my mid thirties. 

Julia Winston: Emily started to heal in her mid 30s, because that's when she started going to therapy and talking honestly about what happened. 

Emily : So I was in therapy three times a week and I had really good therapists and they kind of like slowly just chipped away at this fortress I had built up around the secret. So a therapist one time said to me, like, you know, when people go home for Thanksgiving or whatever. Like, a lot of people have crazy families. He said, you don't have a crazy family. When you go home, you're not going to a home, you're going to a crime scene. And it just hit me in my gut. I was like, It's true. My childhood home doubles as a crime scene. He would have been arrested. Uh, and he wasn't. And it continued until it stopped. So, I had another therapist who, who encouraged me to write a letter to my stepdad and not send it. And I think that was really, really important that she said, no, you know, no pressure to send it, print it, take it to the middle of the forest and light it on fire, like, do whatever. But get it out of your brain onto paper. So I did that exercise. This is all, like, part of the massive unraveling that happened, like, right when I told my older brother. And so I spent time. writing that letter. Like, what would I say to my stepdad if I could? 

Julia Winston: curious about the language that you used. It's so stigmatized and so taboo that like, what language do you even use to bring such a thing to the surface?

Emily : Oh my God. How did I write this letter? This is why I was having like a complete nervous breakdown. Like I remember walking down the street and just like crying because I was, it was just all coming apart and I just could not, you know, that box I put it all in, like it was exploding. And what do you do with that? Like it was too much. 

Julia Winston: When Emily wrote the letter, she ended up sending it to me and a few other close friends. She wanted to unburden herself and share what she was going through. During our interview she got in her email and found what she had sent us back in 2017. 

Emily : I started it: I'd like to open up a conversation about what happened when I was younger, specifically what you did. It has been exhausting to keep a facade up for so many years that you didn't hurt me. It has been such a heavy emotional burden to carry and I'm writing you to hand it back.

I said, like, you know, I wasn't in a position to decide whether or not to trust you and you took advantage of that. It goes on and on. I said, I ended it with, He had a horrible childhood, and I just wanted to acknowledge that. I said, your childhood was horrible, and you didn't deserve what happened to you either. You deserve to live an honest life as much as I do. The lies and secrecy have made me sick, and I want to bring it up because silence isn't serving me.

Julia Winston: When Emily wrote the letter to her step-dad, she didn't plan to give it to him. But once it was all on paper, something shifted. "Don't tell mom" was the mantra she had been given as a child. And finally, it stopped holding power. 

Emily : I was so tightly bound up with this secret. Don't tell mom this is like gonna explode the family. It was like a nuclear bomb that I had in my pocket and What happened I guess first was my brother got married and His wife got pregnant and I was like I can keep a secret from me because who cares But I will not let this happen to my nieces. So I knew I was just up against it. It was like suddenly I just had to tell. Like it was over. And so, first person I told was my older brother, and he, because I was like, you have got to know this, because, you know, I will, I will not let this happen to them. Ugh, sorry.

It's just like, it's, it's very sad to hear myself say words that I wish someone had said, you know, to protect me. But, they weren't said. So, I told my brother and he had no idea, like truly had no idea. And he was like really devastated for me, but I felt like that devastation was like kind of short lived, like it, it kind of just life went on.

Julia Winston: But life didn't go on for Emily. Something had changed and she couldn't keep pretending.

Emily : I went home to a bridal shower or something from my high school friend. And I saw my parents and I, I just remember looking at them and being like, I can't do this anymore. You know, it was over. The ruse was up. I had been sending my dad, my stepdad father's day cards, birthday presents. Like I was so invested in making sure that no one would ever find out that I was like, we are a perfect family. We are a happy family. And I just remember seeing them that day and being like, you know, it's, it's done. And I went home, I went back to my house and I got the letter. I found the letter. I copy pasted it, emailed him, sent it. I remember pressing send and calling my mom at the same second. And that was the beginning of the end.

Julia Winston: When Emily decided to finally share the secret that her stepdad molested her as a kid, she was 34. She'd been processing this in therapy for years. But it wasn't just the abuse that she was untangling, it was how this abuse had affected her self-esteem. As her friend, I watched Emily do really hard work as a result of therapy to show herself more love, to value herself more. And I think as her self-esteem improved, that's how she got the courage to confront her mom and stepdad.

Emily : A lot of the decision to like myself came because I want to have children. And I started to realize that I have this feeling that kids don't necessarily do what you say, but they definitely do what you do. And I knew in my heart I wanted to have kids who had self esteem. And there was just absolutely no fucking way I could raise children to like themselves when I was sending my abuser father's day cards. No way. It was like, there was just not a chance. I just looked into the future and saw these kids looking at my behavior and thinking that was something to model. And I knew I had to make massive changes to become a person I would want them to be.

Julia Winston: And that's an unbelievable level of courage, especially because you knew that it was possible for you to lose it all.

Emily : Yes, it was a massive trade off. It was like me or them, and I reached a crossroads, and it was like, okay, yeah, I've given, I've given you the rest of my life, it's time for me.

Julia Winston: So then you made this bold move where you sent the letter to your stepfather, you called your mom. You said, tell dad to check his email. 

Emily : He actually wrote back, Do and say what you feel you need to do and say. I feel for mom. Um,

Julia Winston: He took no ownership.

Emily : Yeah, what an absolute idiot. And then, he said, sorry, oh he did say, sorry this has caused you so much grief. I understand and feel horrible for you and mom. I am devastated and feel I may lose mom. I do love you so much, and as I told you one night, I love you too much to continue this.

Julia Winston: What? Oh,

Emily : Yeah, that's real pedophile.

Julia Winston: oh my God, like he was in love with you. And that's why it had gone too far?

Emily : Yeah, like the pedophile brain is like, you're You're not right, you're, there's some, there's a major thing that is not right, like, he thinks we were in love, like, that's why he treated me like an ex girlfriend. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, I didn't know what the hell was going on, I was a child, you were an adult, you took advantage of me, let me spell it out for you, it's over.

Julia Winston: The response that came from Emily’s stepdad was deeply disturbing. And her mom’s initial response was devastating- asking if Emily had instigated the abuse. 

Emily : she later did apologize. She said she was in shock. You know, did you instigate it? She had absolutely no fucking clue what to say to me. But this goes into like a deeper thing of like, did she know it was happening at the time? Which she claims she didn't, but many therapists and I have now reached the conclusion that yeah, she definitely knew that there was a strange relationship between us and my stepdad was so immature. Why were we fighting so much? Why was it so contentious? Like there was just so much more to the story than she was willing to dig in to. 

I thought my mom might leave my stepdad, because I'm like a normal person, and I thought, oh, you know what, who would want to be married to someone who had done that to their child? Um, she didn't. leave him. She, she was like, he's not a bad guy. Um, she really jumped through hoops, I think, to maintain this sense that he made a mistake. It happened a long time ago and there's nothing they can do about it now. 

But what, I'm upset about now, or like I think the reason for the estrangement actually is not that she stayed with him because we all have to make our own adult decisions about who we decide to be in partnership with. But my stepdad has never apologized to me, and that is what I can't accept. Is that she can maintain a marriage with someone who didn't spend the rest of his life apologizing.

Julia Winston: What was your brother's response?

Emily : So my older brother had already known because I wanted to protect my nieces and my little brother was a horrible, horrible conversation because I knew I had to call him. I had to tell him something that would really change his relationship with his biological dad. And that was one of my least favorite calls I've ever had to make. Probably second to like telling my mom was telling my little brother. He didn't know. He was shocked. You know, he was really supportive of me. But I think that my brothers also really felt for my mom in that situation because they didn't live it. They didn't see how she behaved towards me, him, us. Um, and I think they felt a little bit defensive of her pain and the situation that she was in. And that's, that was really hard for me to be around honestly. Like I, I actually really understand why people would not want to be very angry at their mother and maintain that incredibly important relationship, but since it blew up for me, it was really hard to watch them have a relationship with her.

Julia Winston: The estrangement didn't happen immediately. Emily waited to see how people would respond once the immediate shock wore off. She’d hoped there might be a little more care for her experience and how this abuse had affected her. Instead, the rest of the family seemed to want to keep the status quo.

Emily : My stepdad never apologized to me Or he did in that, um, stupid email, essentially, like he said, you know, I'm sorry I caused you grief, I'm afraid I might lose mom. But then he kind of changed his mind later on and he wrote an email to his son, um, my brother, my little brother saying like, I can't believe you believe your sister. I thought you were smarter than this. So he, he very much just did a 180, and it's like, what are you talking about? 

But, who cares? Someone who's so ill, mentally ill, that like, I can't spend time like, deciphering his, his words, because he's so off. But, the reason for the estrangement really is because my mom stayed with someone who didn't apologize to me. That was my bar, It was not leave him, obviously, I think that'd be most people's bar, but mine was even lower.

I'm like, have your dumb relationship, but let's live in reality. Let's like deal with what happened. Let's heal together. And we couldn't do it. And so I did end up going to therapy with my mom for three sessions, um, that weren't super helpful and actually were like pretty damaging. And she would just tell me that like, uh, Basically, like, I ruined her life, uh, or that her life was ruined. She told me a few times that she wished she didn't know. And she kind of blamed me in a way that felt like, you know, she would say, like, what did I miss? What was I supposed to have seen that I didn't see? And it's like, what, all of it.

Julia Winston: That's when Emily decided that having contact with her family was actually harmful to her. She couldn't heal and move past the abuse if the people closest to her couldn’t acknowledge the pain.

Julia Winston: Do you follow them on social media? Because I've gotten the sense that you've seen or heard things that have happened, what's that been like over the years?

Emily : Yeah, that's a good question, because I think there's like different levels of estrangement. So there's like absolutely no contact, like you have no idea what's going on in the other person's life. And then there's like the kind of estrangement I have, which I think is just like one little teeny level up, which is like, I follow, you know, my mom and I are Facebook friends, which is so lame.

Uh, but you know, I can kind of see what they're up to. That's how I know they sold my childhood house and moved to a different state was through Facebook. Which was like, really shitty. Because I had stuff in my room that I wanted that I just have to assume is in a landfill now.

You know, it's not a death. It's, these are living people who I do not have contact with, even though they live like two, like less than two hours away from me. my mom and I text like on our birthdays and some like Mother's Day, you know, so it's not like, it's not no contact, but it's, it's a meaningless relationship. There's nothing to it. It's just happy birthday. Thanks. Happy birthday. Which is crazy. Cause if I scroll up, you know, it's goes from happy birthday, happy birthday to like, what do you have for lunch today? You know what I mean? Like, we had a robust relationship until we didn't. So it is wild to kind of see that, like, one day it just literally stops and it's just happy birthday once a year.

Julia Winston: When we come back, Emily starts rebuilding her life after estrangement. 

Julia Winston: Being estranged from her family brings a lot of challenges for Emily. Of course there's grief about what’s been lost. But it's also hard to explain this choice in the course of her day to day life. Think about it, how often do you ask an acquaintance about their family. Do you have siblings? You going home for the holidays? Questions like this come up a lot, and Emily has found that people don't easily accept "i don't talk to my family" as an answer. 

Emily : I have to tell people why we're estranged. And that is, That's a bummer. You know, it's like, oh, we're all having fun at dinner. Not, not quite. You know, like, oh, should we do another round of cocktails? So maybe when Emily's done sobbing, we can look at the appetizers. This is why I'm like, maybe I'll just post this podcast on, like, LinkedIn, so I never have to have this conversation again. It is hard work. And so sometimes I just like let myself not tell people and just lie. Because I'm like, I don't want to cry again today. when I tell people, they are pretty much focused on two things. It's a very uncomfortable thing, estrangement. It's uncomfortable for me, it's uncomfortable for them, they want it to end. There's two main themes that come up, and one is reconciliation. That is probably the biggest thing. What's it gonna take to get back in touch? Because people want it to end. They don't want to sit in the discomfort of this, like, purgatory. Where it's a living death. I, um, Always get like kind of annoyed when people want to talk about reconciliation because I'm like, I don't think you're seeing the full point, which is I'm so hurt.

There has been no group healing. And by the way, a lot of that's on me because I was the one who backed out of my family. I was like, I'm out of here. Like this isn't working for me. And I think I could have done more to be like, let's all, let's try again. Let's come together. Like, and I just, I, I couldn't. I reached a point where I, I bounced.

So when people ask about reconciliation, it's like, you're not seeing the fact that I really tried. I got on the bus at 5am to go to my mom's city to go to therapy close to her. I did that because I couldn't bear the thought of not having a relationship with my mom. And now we're here. So, reconciliation says more about your intolerance for this pain than anything about me.

The second thing is forgiveness. People love to talk about forgiveness as if they are Oprah Winfrey. Everyone has a damn opinion about the way you are supposed to forgive people and, like, it makes them feel and sound so wise when they say forgiveness is not for them, it's for you, and, bitterness is whatever, a poison, drinking poison and hoping the other person dies, like, all these dumb ass, like, I'm like, put that on a pillow. Um, that sounds great your life, but it really isn't working for me. And let me tell you why. There is a cult of forgiveness. It is like, the only way people know how to frame trauma is to overcome it. And I'm like, actually I'm having a pretty good damn time being angry.

Like, forgiving to me sounds like you're telling me not to be angry, which by the way, is what I was told until I was 34 years old when I decided to stop listening to the command to not tell mom. So leaning into this anger is part of freeing myself from a secret. So no, I am not forgiving people who don't know deserve it, who didn't earn it, who didn't go through the million steps it takes to make me feel like this was not something I deserved and this was, you know, a really horrible part of my childhood that you just get to have a great life and you don't have to tell your friends why Emily's not around for Christmas or Thanksgiving and never comes to visit. Like, they just get to live a normal life. And I'm not following that path. I do not think forgiveness is for them. If I'm forgiving anyone, it's myself for waiting until I was 34 years old to come up with the self confidence to not listen anymore. And that's where I want to put my energy.

Julia Winston: When you and I were preparing for this conversation, when you talked about that point, it really was like, Oh, it really struck me because you said that for you, the goal is not forgiveness for you. The goal is healing. And That forgiveness is not part of your healing journey, at least not right now.

Emily : Yeah. My goal is not retribution. It's not putting him in jail. A lot of people Love to talk about that too, like why isn't he in jail, I can't believe your mom is still married to him. I'm like, you know what I'd rather do? Not talka about them. Like they sucked up so much of my mental space and my energy and my goodness for such a long time. Me tap dancing to make everyone feel comfortable that we can keep this family intact. It's all because Emily's being a good girl who listened to her stepdad one night. And, you know, the healing for me has really been watching this explosion that I started. You know, I, those words were due to my decision to end this secret. And really trying through the haze, through the grief, crying, depression, to appreciate this glorious explosion and mess that I'm in has resulted in my freedom?

Julia Winston: Emily is able to say all of this with confidence and strength today, but it took years and years of therapy for her to be able to talk about the abuse and the estrangement without crying. And the most heartbreaking part of the whole thing wasn’t just losing her mom, it was the fact that her mom chose to stand by her husband instead of her daughter. 

Emily : I had a fantasy that it would be her butterfly moment. You know, it would be her like, Joining me in reality over here, where we talk about the truth and we do cry and we, we heal and we, we do the best we can to pick up the pieces and, and move on together. But the blast was too strong and we just ended up on different sides. So I had a fantasy that she would, I guess, leave him and We would be closer because I felt chosen by her and I wasn't. So that was a massive period of grief. I mean, three like major depressions, like the only thing that gets you through that kind of level of, of sadness is time. And I hate that that's true, but I feel a lot better today than I did five years ago. My God, I was like, didn't know which end was up.

Part of telling my mom was knowing that I might lose it all. I might lose the whole family. And I remember therapists would be like, You won't. You know, that's not gonna happen. And it's like, no, it literally did happen. So, there's a massive risk in Deciding to unburden yourself, but I also don't regret it, you know. I needed to do that. Thank God I did.

It was really devastating for me to realize that I was failed on that level from my mother because I always held her up as like the good parent and letting go of that like fantasy I had that like at least I had one and in many ways I did have a really good parent in my mom. She she came to all my games she packed my lunch she wrote me notes in my lunch there was a lot of good a lot so I don't want to say like the whole thing was bad but Obviously, like, a pretty big, important thing happened that colored it all, even the good. 

I'm really mad, I'm really at my mom and I feel like, I guess kind of like pathetic, but I miss her even though she put me through like complete bullshit. I like, I miss my mom. You know, I miss the relationship that we had and all the joking we did in the, just the, we're just fully aligned on so many topics. And she really put me through so much, and I rejected it because I chose myself. And this, this is a hard thing to square with self confidence, is missing someone who treats you like shit. But, that's where we're at. She's my mom. And I'm, you know, I'm not like, I'm gonna reach out to, uh, to get rid of that bad feeling. It's something I sit with.

Julia Winston: What are some of the unexpected ways that you feel the loss of not having parents?

Emily : Okay, so, it's actually really interesting. There comes a time in your life where you go, you transition from being taken care of to taking care of others. And I am really blessed in many ways in my life and I have been successful in my career and I would love to have parents I could spoil. I would absolutely love that. And I feel like part of estrangement that sucks is I don't have anyone to take care of who is older than me, you know, who raised me. Giving back. That's been a really sad thing for me. And thank God I have amazing in laws and I really want to spoil them. Like sometimes my girlfriend will tell me where she's at. She's like out having a drink with her parents and I'll like call the bar and like pay for their tab 

Julia Winston: Oh, that's so classy.

Emily : It's just like so fun to be like, and this one's on me, you know, and I would do that for my parents. I would like buy them a vacation or whatever, but I can't. And so I'm glad that I want kids because I clearly have this, like I want to give. And when you don't have parents, there's a real hole. There's a real lack of the ability to give back to people who gave you so much. And that makes me sad.

And then there's the everyday, like, birthdays, holidays, you know, just the relationship. I had a really fun friendship with my mom. Like, I really did. Clearly, she didn't know everything about me, and you could argue that a lot of it was surface level, but the way that you connect with your own mother, like, you are on the same wavelength in a way that is kind of impossible to have with anyone else, even really good friends, you're just, you come from her. You're She made you. And my mom's really funny, and so we, we would laugh a lot. So, there were so many jokes, there were so many times we were like, doubled over laughing. And that's a loss. That's a really big loss. Because you're kind of losing, like, a lot more than, you know, a good friend. It's like, the deepest kind of friend you can have. It's not there anymore.

Julia Winston: Yeah. Is there some part of you that still does hope for a relationship in the future? Or are you, have you made total peace with estrangement as being the sort of end state for you?

Emily : No, this is interesting because, again, going back to like, what kind of model do I want to be for my children? Estrangement isn't fun. I don't, and there are many times when I've thought this isn't working for me. You know, like, I gotta change this up, this is too painful. I'm being stubborn. You know, I don't think I handled it perfectly. When I decided to leave the family, I wasn't like, these are the four things that need to change before I can come back. I just left. So I imagine that my brothers feel really abandoned and really hurt, and I needed to leave to repair and heal on my own because I was not, I what? It was not possible to do in that structure. It was not possible. And I worry about regret. You know, any one of them could die any day, and this would be our final, the final chapter? It's not great. It's not the final chapter I would write if I were writing a book. And this is how it ends, everyone. It's completely open ended, and there was no contact made ever again.

Like, that's not a good movie. So, I treat estrangement as a day by day decision. I'm not ready today to reach out. And it makes me sad, you know, my nieces have grown up. I've often thought about like, do I buy them a birthday card for every year I've missed, you know, and just start putting them in a drawer just to tell them like, I missed your childhood or like a portion of your childhood, but I really thought about you a lot, you know that's the hardest thing, I think. Is the kids. But they have a relationship with their grandparents. So that's really hard. Because, what's the story they're being told? I don't know. I don't think this is the end state, but I cannot predict the future. I hope I don't regret it. But this is my decision today. just like it was yesterday and the previous seven years. 

Julia Winston: It’s been incredibly painful for Emily to distance herself from her family. But she knew she wanted to be a mom one day, and one who sets a healthy example for her children. She wants to be a role model who loves and values herself, not someone who punishes herself to make others more comfortable. Today, Emily is in a relationship with an amazing person who loves and values her, and they’re engaged to be married. She and her fiance want to have kids and are making all the plans to start their own family.

Emily : I would say like for my kids, future children, hopefully knock on wood, they exist one day soon. I want two things for them. Every parent will say they want their kid to be happy. So obviously I want happiness for my children, but I want something else that I don't often hear people say, which is for my children, I want them to have clarity. I want them to have a robust vocabulary for what they experience, and I want them to be able to connect it to how they're feeling in real time. I am not a secret household. We will not have a secrets household. Um, I want them to be able to discern what's happening and describe it. It's the opposite of my childhood in many ways. And that's a gift that I can only give them because I suffered.

Julia Winston: Just the idea of you being a mother is like incredible. I mean, you're just, the way I hear you talk about your children, it's like fills my heart with hope and excitement because you're going to be such an amazing mother and you have had to go through so much shit to know exactly what kind of parent you want to be.

Emily : yes. you Know, straight people can just, like, have sex and have a kid, and gay people have to go through, like, a lot more effort, and I think that's also kind of a gift because it's given me the opportunity time to really reflect on what kind of parent I want to be and to become the person I want to be to ensure that that is possible. So, God bless egg freezing and embryo creation because it's given me time and space to, to change, which I needed to do. I used to absolutely hate myself. I had such low self esteem. And I still do struggle, but not like I did. Oh my God. Going from Don't Tell Mom to being on your friend's podcast and announcing it to the world, like, that's a huge change.

Julia Winston: What role have friendships played your journey you As you've navigated estrangement?

Emily : Yeah, I imagine for, for everyone who's estranged that their friends suddenly take up a larger emotional role than they may have otherwise. Not to say that people who aren't estranged, like, have, you know, surface level friendships at all, but it is true that when you're estranged, your, like, partnership, I think, became like much more important to me because.

What would I do on Christmas and Thanksgiving? Like be in my apartment alone? Like I, I didn't want that for myself. And so now always having someone else's family who is so amazing. I have the best in laws in the world and having that and having a partner who like can accept all of my grief and like lift me up and bring me so much joy. And for me, that has been huge. And, my best friends, like, I have so many amazingly smart, deep emo you know, the EQ of our friendship group is amazing off the charts. Just the depth of your love has been so powerful because I was broken and I needed help and you were there. 

Julia Winston: Years ago, when Emily told us what happened and sent us the email she’d written to her step-dad, it broke my heart. It crushed me to know that someone I love so much had been hurt, and was hurting. As she's gone through this whole process, an excruciatingly painful journey of refamulating that she never asked for, I've been watching from the sidelines. And I am sooo inspired by the love she’s found within herself. Emily lost everything when she stood up for herself. And yet...she gave herself exactly what she needed to make a loving family of her own. 

Emily : Child abusers are incredibly short sighted. They're dumb because what they think they're doing is abusing a child. But what they're actually doing is abusing a future adult. And worst case scenario for them, it's not just a future adult, it's a future adult who likes themself.

When you're a kid,  the adults around you control everything. They control your bedtime, your diet, the activities you do, the friends you're allowed to see, the school you go to, the neighborhood you live in.  But there is one thing that they do not control, and that is time.

So, it really is playing with fire when you abuse a child because you don't know who they're going to become. They're actually not frozen in a state of childhood forever. When they grow old, we grow up. So, they're losing power, we're gaining it. We're stepping in when they're on their way out. You know? And it's like, that is the ultimate retribution, is like, you're an old man now. And look at me on a podcast. Don't remember you getting invited to a podcast. Your child abuser, You know what mean? Like, go away. Like you're, you're so obsolete. And he didn't, he just couldn't see when I was nine years old and it started, he couldn't see that I would one day go to a lot of therapy and become a person who likes myself. He just didn't have the imagination and neither did I. I thought, Oh God, my life's, you know, that that's just going to be, have to be something that I ignore because it's too painful. Well, I have the last word here and that's the joy of stepping into power and realizing no one's going to give it to you.

Julia Winston: and just seeing how happy you are in your relationship and you're now you're engaged. You're getting married soon You're in a loving relationship. You're flourishing in your career like you're not about them anymore. Like your life is really about you. What are you proud of? 

Emily: For me to like myself, that's what I think I'm proudest of, is, is realizing that I have the power to decide how I feel about myself instead of listening to criminals dictate, you know, my worth. Like that was a huge, huge, I mean, Herculean effort to, To change as an adult. 

We know which path to walk down to feel happy You And then there's another path that is extremely painful for a very long time, but at the end of it is freedom. And so many people just choose to walk down the path of denial because who wants to cry for four years? I mean, it was, it was unbelievable. It was so exhausting. You've seen me sob, like, on vacations. Like, it was so awful. I can't even put it into words how hard it was. But the fact, now that I'm on the other side of the biggest barrier possible, losing your mother, uh, exploding your, the closest relationships in your life, so that I could potentially feel better and have it come true that I actually feel better, what a gift. Thank God. Thank God I didn't go through all that and regret it. I mean, there's no way. I'm so proud that I cried for four years.